What is wrong with that assumption? Racism has been almost universal across cultures, nations and races. Whites aren’t the only racists.
Wesley Clark, I hope I have your argument right… set me straight if i misrepresent anything.
Sticking with the issue of crime (to keep things simple as possible…)
It is correct to say that the percentage of blacks who committ crimes is higher than the percentage of whites who committ crimes. (This may or may not be actually true, as some would argue that our justice system is more likely to persecute blacks, but we’ll leave that issue alone for the moment.)
Then, you can say, ’ I disapprove of high crime rates within the black community’ and still have a valid point.
But the error creeps into this train of thought when you begin to generalize, and to be suspicious or uncomfortable around all black people, judging an entire race by the small percentage that does crime, even if that percentage is higher than the white percentage.
It’s a very thin line though, because, as bad as it sounds, it is valid (statistic-wise) to say that a black person is more likely to committ a crime than a white person. But I think that’s so because a black person is also more likely to belong to a lower section of the socioeconomic scale, because they are at a disadvantage. (The disadvatage stems form the fact that unabashed discrimination was prevalant in America until relatively recently… the black population has had to fight for basic rights before they could participate in society. In the race for success, white America had a huge head start.)
And I think that what you call ‘discomfort’ is synomymous with racism. It’s a prejudice, plain and simple. You probably define it as something different because it is much less extreme than overt hatred or superiority, but it still qualifies as racism and is a definite problem, one that still needs to be overcome.
But otherwise, I think you make valid points.
If it were only a dislike of illegitimacy and crime, then there would be no point to bringing race into the discussion. Children born to unmarried women and criminal acts are found throughout all segments of American society. If a person discusses a group based on arbitrary selection of statistics applied to perceptions of race, why should we deny that their statements are racial? If they draw unwarranted conclusions from their statistics and apply them to the group as a whole, that would seem to indicate a racist act unless one can demonstrate a compelling reason why it is not racist.
As an example, the New England Journal of Medicine had an issue on this very topic. One research paper was published that showed the “black” men were not helped by an anti-heart attack medicine as “white” men. The authors drew trhew conclusion that there was a racial component to the efficacy of the drug. A later researcher took their raw numbers, re-analyzed them, and demonstrated that the participants in the study were drawn from different social starta and if one examined the data ignoring race and using income and lifestyle, one got a better rate of predicition for drug efficacy. It simply happened that the majority of the subjects who were black were already older and sicker than the subjects who were white and the first researcher jumped to a racial conclusion. Was that racism? It was probably not deliberate racism but institutional racism. When you get lots of white people looking at raw numbers for crime and births out of wedlock and they do no further analysis than to put labels on the black community, then I would say that that is racism. Is it the same sort of KKK driven racism that calls for moral condemnation? No. However, to the extent that people are making ill-informed judgements of other people based on perceived race, it is racism.
Why should a black person feel they have a fair shake in life knowing that a bunch of white people are uncomfortable around them?
It may be a mild annoyance if it’s rare. If it’s as common as you’ve intimated in previous posts, then it’s not a mild annoyance. It’s something to be worried about. People beliefs have a weird way of creeping into their behavior.
And I know that if I heard someone at my workplace telling nigger jokes, I wouldn’t be mildly annoyed. I would hope my friends wouldn’t be mildly annoyed either.
Don’t approve of what? Illegitimacy? Crime rates? Black culture?
Is illegitimacy and crime a part of white culture too? Can I be uncomfortable around whites because of these things too? Or do I have no right to feel righteous indignation since my group is relatively naughtier?
Do you realize that fifty years ago the crime rates of blacks and whites were practically even? And guess what? Blacks were condemned back then too.
From what I’ve seen, having grown up in a 90% white environment all my life, is that racism does not take the obvious form of “we don’t want no NIGGA’S round here!”. It takes a more subtle form. A neighborhood with a high percentage of minorities is “ghetto” or “sketchy”. Affecting overly “black” mannerisms is also “ghetto” or at best is a kind of ironic parody (like Michael Bolton in Office Space listening to 2Pac in the car but getting nervous when the black guy approaches). It’s more an association of certain cultures with low class or lack of sophistication. It imediately makes people “outsiders” based on easily identifiable characteristics. It’s not hatred per se, but it does have the effect of excluding individuals based on superficial characteristics.
And between looks, popularity, religeous or political affiliation, height, weight and general fitness level, job title, income, car, neighborhood, or brand of jeans, don’t we have enough superficial characteristics to judge each other on?
pizzabrat
[Moderator Hat ON]
pizzabrat, do NOT call anyone an “idot” (sic), OR tell them to “burn in Hell” in this forum.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
No, I do not.
(wipes ass with glycerine and…)
rose- im not saying all blacks are criminals what im saying is that some whites condemn the fact that blacks, on per capita average, commit more crimes than whites (for example). Not all blacks are criminals or anything. I honestly do not know any whites who believe that, not even the ones who act racist believe all blacks are criminals. But if things like illigitimacy are around 70%, i dont think condemning that is racist just because the group with the 70% illigitimacy rate happens to be black. Well, there is probably some racism to it, but i think thats more because issues are made polar black-white in this society rather than a desire to bring down black people as a whole.
monstro - i dont know whites are uncomfortable around blacks, so i can’t answer that. If you or anyone uses a word like ‘racist’ to describe people you are doing a disservice, people walking on eggshells will not help blacks integrate into society any (if they want to integrate. many do not, but thats not really relevant to this i guess). ALso i never said whites were openly racist, most are not racist. But a small minority feign racism as a response to what they feel is unfairness. Again, these people are not serious in their beliefs and they are a minority group. They really can’t do anything to hold black people back in society as far as i can tell.
Ive always considered race to be a minor issue myself. But the fact that im white probably plays a large role in that, but i think having to hear rude things once every few years around a water cooler is not the end of the world.
In all seriousness, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I have already noted that the racism among whites is a more serious problem because whites have a greater capacity to inflict harm. Claiming that Farrakhan is a bigot but not a racist is silly. Bigotry is an intolerant holding to a personal opinion. Farrakhan’s specific condemnation of white people is racist (as is his virulent and factually inaccurate condemnation of Jews). (If you are among those people who wish to change the language so that racism can only apply to people with power, then you should start a new thread rather than hijcking this one. Racism is the denigration or exaltation of any group based on a perception of race. The word has a long history with a clear meaning and I am using it in that context.) Farrakhan does demonstrate bigotry, but he expresses it in the form of racism.
msmith537, this is an accurate representation of racism as I see it. It’s very subtle, and surprsingly widespread.
I once saw on TV a study where people where insturcted to look at a screen, which would show pictures of people, one by one, holding things like cell phones and cans and whatnot; a few of the figures were holding guns. Viewers were given a sort of gun remote control, and told to quickly shoot everyone who was holding a gun. There where errors of course; viewers mistakenly shot some people who were innocently holding cans.
But all viewers, even black viewers, were more likely to mistakenly shoot at a black figure than at a white figure. Even the guy who created the test fell into the same pattern!! It was an amazing demonstration of how people have these subconscious thought tendencies, and how they can change our behavior without our even knowing it. Even I catch myself in a slightly racist thought every now and then… and I’m half-black! I’m pretty sure that if the vast majority of people examined their own thought processes, they would find some traces of racism. Has anyone else besides me noticed this in themselves?
Some racism? What is not racist about looking at the figures for unwed pregnancies in the U.S. and dividing the group along racial lines? What is the purpose for making that distinction? What purpose is served by noting the racial composition of the group?
If you are a sociologist or a planner for government or health outreach programs, there may be some point to identify where to target funds to address an issue. In that case, looking at race in the context of the cultural or geographic traits of a group may make sense. If you are simply standing on the sidelines condemning a group for having a statistic attached to it looks like racism to me.
Wesley, I didn’t mean to imply that. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying… I’m just acknowledging that your argument walks the very thin line between what is valid and what could be considered racist. It’s a difficult tightrope to walk!
But I guess I most strongly disagree with your wording… calling racism ‘discomfort’ dismisses it a little too lightly. And talking around the water cooler may not be too bad in itself, but if prejudice is strong enough to inpire such whispers, it may also be strong enough to affect how those people behave towards black people. It’s subtle, but it’s there… when the boss overlooks the black guy for a promotion, or when a teacher is more lenient on a white student, or when a policeman is a little harsher with a black suspect.
If people are acting like racist, I will damn well call them racist. If someone is being prejudiced or hateful or ignorant, why should I worry about their feelings? They obviously don’t mince words, so why should I? The word “racist” isn’t the problem. It’s the behavior that this word describes that’s the problem.
I find it funny that you know that many of us black folk don’t want to integrate, and yet you don’t know any whites who are uncomfortable around blacks or who are racist or who are “discomforted”. The asymmetry is telling.
How do you know when someone is faking racism or being serious? I give people the benefit of the doubt, but if someone calls a black person a “nigger”, I’m not going to automatically assume they’re kidding around. Why should I?
Did you read the links that I posted? If you haven’t, I advise you too. Perhaps you’ll shed some of your…um…innocence.
I’ll tell you a story.
About thirty years ago, my father was hanging out in the teacher’s lounge. My father’s a light-skinned man who is often mistaken as white. A bunch of teachers were sitting at the table chatting, and the conversation steered towards a discussion on the “new name” for the coloreds: Black Americans. Negativity was expressed, and my father, realizing they didn’t know he was black, asked the teachers what their name of choice was.
The principal was sitting at the table and said, “Oh, we just call them niggers!”
A week later, the principal found out that my father is a black man and apologized profusely. But he wasn’t sorry. He was just scared.
Now, you probably think my father had no right to be anything other than “mildly annoyed”. How nice it must be to be able to look at things so glibly! My father was not midly annoyed. He realized that a man who refers to his black students as “nigger” cannot treat them fairly. And my father realized that as a black teacher at that school, he was not going to get a fair shake. Why should he have felt otherwise?
I’d feel the exact same way if I was in the same situation.
Yup.
Last week, a job candidate gave a talk for our department. The talk was held in a public room where anyone can just walk in and sit in the audience without being asked for ID.
About half-way into the guy’s talk, a black guy came in and sat down in the back of the room. Now, I’m usually the only black person sitting in the audience during any given talk, so I thought this was unusual. I took some sideways glances at the guy and decided that he was a homeless fellow looking to pass the time somewhere. I was kinda nervous and embarrassed.
The guy sitting next to me whispered “Who is that?” I shrugged and whispered “A concerned citizen?” thinking I was being cute and clever. But the concerned citizen made him nervous too. He looked over at him a few times like he was afraid he was going to pull a Colin Ferguson at any minute.
By the end of the talk, I had almost forgotten about the man. That is, until the speaker asked for questions. He, the homeless concerned citizen, actually raised his hand! Oh no! I thought. He’s going to say something crazy and stupid, and the cops will have to be called, and everyone’s going to be looking at me like I did something wrong! But the candidate, being much more open-minded than me, recognized him. Out the guy’s mouth came the most intelligent, sophisticated question. One that I can’t remember because it went right over my sophomoric little head.
I realized, from the nature of his question, that the man was a professor from the math department and that’s why I didn’t know him. I felt awful, and I’m sure my friend did too.
Even I can admit that I’m racist…against my own people. It shames me and frightens me and worries me, but it’s always better to be honest than in denial. In the future I hope I can put my prejudices aside and not ASSume things when ASSuming isn’t necessary.
I don’t really have a huge number of people I associate with closely. So, I rather look at it this way: If I know a racist, there are probably a ton of them.
And my mother-in-law is a blacks-are-inferior-but-I’m-not-a-racist racist.
So, I believe that there is a lot of racism out there. And I know that I am definitely not immune from a sense of uneasiness and self-consciousness under some circumstances when I’m dealing with people who differ from me in, well, pretty much any way.
Of course, I’m a social moron, but I think it’s still a form of racism.
Julie
WC: Ive always considered race to be a minor issue myself. But the fact that im white probably plays a large role in that, but i think having to hear rude things once every few years around a water cooler is not the end of the world.
There’s a lot of evidence that racism against blacks is a much more serious problem than that. As I recently mentioned in one of the perennial “anti-PC” Pit threads, consider the 2003 Northwestern University study that used four college students—two white, two black—to pose as job applicants in interviewing with 350 employers in the Milwaukee area for low-skilled jobs.
The “applicants” were given nearly identical resumes and were very similar in dress, appearance, manners, responses, etc. The only major difference among them was that one white and one black “applicant” both admitted to a prior felony conviction and imprisonment (for cocaine possession).
The percentages of employers who called back the various “applicants” break down as follows:
White applicant without criminal record: 34%
White applicant with criminal record: 17%
Black applicant without criminal record: 14%
Black applicant with criminal record: 5%
The conductors of the study actually intended it to test the incidence of employment discrimination against ex-convicts (which btw is illegal, unless “the circumstances of the crime correspond closely to the requirements of the job”). It was rather a shock to find that racial discrimination was even stronger than discrimination against criminals, to the extent that a black applicant with a clean record is less likely to be called back than a white ex-con.
I don’t see how anyone can look at such results and continue to believe that the biggest remaining problem with racism is simply “having to hear rude things once every few years around a water cooler”. Persistent racism obviously still has a much more serious impact in areas like employment discrimination.
Milwaukee also features less-than-proudly in a study of discriminatory rejection of black vs. white mortgage applicants:
So if you’re black, you’re considered a less attractive job applicant than a white person with a criminal record, and a less attractive loan applicant than a white person with only half your income. It’s the old “you’ve got to do twice as well to be considered half as good” double standard of discrimination.
Can you define what the difference is between institutional racism and deliberate racism?
To me the research anecdote that you provided indicates that the researchers live with a notion that blacks and whites are more different than they are the alike which led them to draw the conclusion that they did without looking at the data in other ways. We could say that they aren’t good scientist but we can also say that their scientific scholarship is colored by racism and science has a long history of that.
It should be morally condemened, it should also be ridiculed as stupid thinking as well. KKK driven racism? What is that?
It should also be considered that, at certain times, when people act in a way that either is racist or appears racist, that person has good reason to do so. For example, take where I live, Washington, D.C. Every time I’ve ever been threatened, had someone attempt to sell me drugs or stolen property, or witnessed any sort of anti-social behavior (fighting, urinating or defecating in public, obvious public drunkenness or intoxication, etc.) it’s been by black men. And they’ve all fit a certain profile – age 20 to 40, who dress somewhat shabbily and look, frankly, shady. So when I see a guy who looks like that, I’m going to automatically pay a little more attention to him. I don’t see this as a racist action, but simply being smart. Those are the people who have made me feel unsafe in the past so those are the people around whom I need to be alert.
Will every shady looking black guy threaten me? Of course not, but I’ve only ever been threatened by them. So while I engage in behavior that stereotypes many black men unfairly, I think this is a fair trade-off so that I may be a little more safe. And I don’t think that every black male is “out to get me.” If a guy has clean clothes and is well put-together, for instance, then I don’t give the guy a second thought. Similarly, I haven’t had any negative experiences with black teenagers, so I don’t stereotype them the way I do slightly older black men who fit a certain description.
So is this racist behavior, or is it just dealing rationally with a threatening world?
A lot of posters on this thread have mentioned the role of black “culture” in black-white race relations . . . but there’s a new factor now, isn’t there? Since the immigration reforms, not all negro Americans have the same culture. Most are descended from American slaves or free blacks who were living here in 1865 – but now a substantial minority of blacks in America have come here more recently, from Africa or the Caribbean. Some day we will have to come up with another set of names to distringuish the two groups – that is, to distinguish “old” African-Americans from newcomers. They might (in the eyes of white people) look alike, but their cultures are very different. And when the newcomers assimilate, it’s by no means certain whether they will assimilate to the culture of the older African-American community, with its ebonics, etc., or to the broader generical American cultural community, with its “anchorman English”, etc.
Tony Brown seems to have slipped off the rails lately – a few years ago he published a book blaming all of black America’s troubles on conspiracies, and yes, he did use the term “Illuminati” – but I remember an older “Tony Brown’s Journal” column of his where he cited statistics showing that recent black immigrants have climbed the social ladder in America just like generations of immigrants before them, far outpacing the native-born African-Americans. Why? Brown’s theory was that native-born blacks have internalized a sense of their own inferiority, and that’s what’s holding them back. The black immigrants face all the usual barriers of racism, but because they do not think of themselves as inferior, they manage to overcome them.