How much should immigrants of other cultures change to fit the culture of their new homeland?

Great Debates
1

The debate is pretty much as is in the title.

I guess I’m mainly considering Muslims here, and the difficulties of wearing Hijab, Niqab or Burqa in a Western nation, but really I’d like it to be more general than that.

Was just watching a documentary here which got me thinking - in one part a Muslim woman refused to shake hands with a local man presumably because he wasn’t a family member. I don’t have a problem with that at all, but strangely I do have a problem with wearing Burqa or not allowing women to talk to men outside the family. I’m just considering where my own personal lines are drawn, and where the lines of a nation should be drawn - if at all?

2

They should obey the laws of their new homeland. The laws, in turn, should fundamentally be about protecting the rights of other citizens.

So, an immigrant who chooses to wear a headscarf or even a burqa is not violating anyone else’s rights; however, her male relatives will have to accept that while they can cajole or plead or pout, they cannot force her into wearing a headscarf or a burqa if she decides she no longer wishes to do so, since such threats would be a violation of her rights, and her rights ought to be protected by the law.

3

A lot of the problem with that is that someone who’s being forced into wearing a burqa isn’t going to have a whole lot of personal autonomy to go and complain to the police about it.

Now, I don’t like to be the kind of person who advocates for making any form of dress illegal, but that seems to be the route I get led down by that kind of thinking :frowning:

More importantly, do the practices of some cultures materially interfere with the possibility of integrating into a society? Is it a problem if they do?

4 
Some people don't really want to integrate, and that's fine.They still need to obey the laws which apply to everyone else. The problems seem to come with people who want to integrate in some aspects but not others and with those who expect society to adjust to their practices.

I don’t think it’s a problem if freely-chosen cultural practices interfere with integration into a larger society provided that those engaged in those practices don’t expect the larger society to adapt to their culture- for example, if a culture objects to boys and girls attending the same school, I don’t think it’s a problem so long as that culture operates its own schools rather than expecting gender-segregated public schools. If the women want to wear burqas, or “modest clothing” , that’s also fine , so long as they realize that I am under no obligation to do so even when walking or bike riding through their neighborhood.

5

I would argue that they should change enough to fit into their new culture with the caveat that the fit needs not be perfect and the rest of us might have to change a little bit to assimilate them. MEBucknerwants to frame the discussion within the context of legal rights but I think the issue is a little more complicated than that. I doubt you’ll find many people in the United States that want to ban women from wearing headscarves in public. So the issue really isn’t one of “rights” when asking whether or not immigrants of others cultures should, or how much they should, change in order to fit into their new homeland.

If I had a good candidate to fill a position at work I wouldn’t care whether he or she wore head gear as part of their religious beliefs. However, if that candidate refused to shake hands with members of the opposite sex then I would not hire them. Generally speaking, it’s pretty rude here in the United States to refuse to shake someone’s hand. So maybe that’s a custom they might want to think about changing in order to better fit in their new home.

6

They should do whatever they hell they want within the bounds of the law.

7

The burqa is really not an issue in the United States. How many women have you seen wearing one? I’ve seen one and that was in Plano, Texas in 2008 crossing the street at the corner of Parker and Custer one afternoon towards the end of March.

8

Is that what you did when you were in Camaroon? When you were in China did you make no adaptations at all in order to get along with other people there? I ask because the only people I know of who did not adapt to local cultures were those who didn’t work directly with the native population.

9

Oddly enough, I don’t have a problem with refusing to shake hands - although anecdote time I went to see my G.P. once only to find out he was out sick and being filled in for by a locum who was Muslim (my assumption, I freely admit, due to beard & name) who refused to shake my hand when I offered it. Now, in fairness, nothing in my checkup required him to touch me, and it’s entirely possible that he would have if it had been required. But I still found that quite jarring anecdote time

Actually, on rereading the anecdote there, it does sound a bit racist. Maybe most of the problem with integration in society is having to get over people continuous preconceived notions of you:(

10

But where should the law be? There’s no law against, for example, not allowing your wife to drive?

11

I’m not in the U.S., but absolutely I don’t see the burqa a lot, it’s just a debate.

12

If it’s acceptable in Western cultures for women to wear this kind of costume, for religious reasons and to protect their modesty, why should thy not be free to wear the burqa?

13

I have a problem with that too.

Sorry, the reason the O.P is so unfairly Muslim focused is because I was watching a (terrible!) documentary where an obnoxious newspaper column writer lives with Muslims for a week and is obnoxious.

I really do mean it to be a more open debate than that. For example, if I was to move to a country where off the top of my head, women didn’t wear any clothes above the waist, is it incumbent on me to fit in with the culture there in the name of integration?

The question of where the line is is more interesting to me than the specifics.

14

Why should there be? Does nay country have a law against a native refusing to allow his wife to drive (or one preventing him from him demanding that his wife drive, for that matter) If that native doesn’t allow his wife to drive , she can go along with it for whatever reason she chooses or not . In most Western societies ,the law is not going to step in until he actually commits a crime , such as beating her for driving without permission. Why should it be different for the immigrant? In fact, if he’s not beating her , or if she’s too frightened to report a beating to the police, how would that sort of law be enforced ?

There are any number of religious or cultural practices that don’t impact anyone other than the person engaging in the practice. If a woman is wearing a burqa , it doesn’t affect you and I don’t understand why you have a problem with it. I sort of understand you having a problem with her husband demanding she wear one, but from the outside, you can’t tell if it’s her choice or his choice.

15

Seeking to integrate into your local culture is probably the surest bet for succeeding professionally, developing meaningful social relations, and ensuring your own safety. It’s certainly a good thing to do.

But absolutely, you pick your battles. Every expat has a few things they can’t bring themselves to compromise on. I had no problem wearing a headscarf (keeps out the glare and stares) but I would not, could not, absolutely refused to sweep the dirt in my front yard. I’m an American, and Americans don’t wake up at 5 AM to sweep the ground (people kept sending their kids to sweep my dirt, so eventually I had to pay someone to sweep my yard so that I could stop with the child labor). Other expats would wear pants, or stay vegetarian, or refuse to ride on motorcycles. Everyone has their set of breaking points. Everyone also makes some uncomfortable compromises. Child labor is a reality. You will pay people exploitative wages for things. You will occasionally demand special privileges based on your race. You do it, but it never settles with you.

But I’ve always lived abroad as a young person, there by 100% choice, in a positive situation that was entirely temporary. A lot of immigrants are older and more set in their ways, and are not here because of a particularly positive set of events.

A lot of these ideas kind of solidified in China, when a friend got knocked up by a Chinese man and made it work. She was young, and could swing a middle-class Chinese life, but not a middle-class expat life. Chi-chi American schools, expat flats and shopping at WalMart were not in the picture for her. For the most part, the child was being raised as a Chinese child who happens to have an American mother.

Suddenly, she had a lot of very real things to figure out regarding children and culture. Sure, it’s cute that your kid goes to school on Christmas but gets nuts over Spring Festival. But does she really want her child to learn that she is inferior to men and unsuitable for leadership in the work place? Chinese elementary school is cute with the little uniforms and songs, but does she want her child to go through the hell of Chinese high school with the high-pressure life-determining exams and classes until 10 PM? Is she really comfortable with the idea that one day her kid will probably stop talking to her in English and family life will be in Mandarin? Does she want to stop cooking the dishes she grew up with and serve the kid Chinese dishes so she can be more like her friends? How is it going to be, being the only American in her household, with all this cultural baggage that is largely irrelevant to anyone’s life? Her American friends are going to be “Mom’s weird foreign friends, playing inexplicable games and jabbering away in a foreign language.”

It gets very, very real. And it is very, very tough. I think he most anyone can do is just try to do the best they can and figure out some way to make life work.

16

Scathach, interesting analogy with asking women to walk around breasts bared. I can well imagine that it would feel similar to someone who chooses to wear a head scarf. Personally, if I moved somewhere where that was the norm, I think I would try and see if I could get used to it. If I felt perpetually uncomfortable, I might go back to covering up.
I think it is pretty clear that forcing women to uncover their heads is oppressing them just as much as forcing them to wear a head scarf.

Another problem we might want to mention: recently in the Netherlands I think there was a debate after a Muslim refused to stand in court, because as he said, his religion said he didn’t have to for an infidel judge. I can’t remember what happened, I’ll try to look it up.

I think I would be extremely offended if someone would not shake my hand. I know that also occurred not too long ago in the Netherlands, between a politician and an imam. I think in such a case it becomes problematic: evidently the imam is trying to engage in the culture of his (new?) homeland by meeting with a politician, but he is not effective in doing so if he refuses the simplest of customs. It perpetuates misunderstandings between cultures. It’s sad, and perhaps should be different, but actively doing something about it…?

With regards to what Doreen said, I wonder in how far that already constitutes “the larger society adapting to their culture”, because at the end of the day, the handshake is not happening.

I would maintain that most of those problems will resolve themselves: if nobody will do business with people who won’t shake hands, the practice will probably die out. No laws, pressure or foot-stamping required.

17

The only thing that has ever bugged me is covering ones face. It is invariably women. If covering your face is so religious, why don’t the men do it?

Because it’s oppressive, and insulting to the culture we have in America.

If I said it was my religious duty to walk around with my dong hanging out, I’d get arrested. If I wore a shirt that had offensive stuff on it, I can be asked to leave places. Why is the face hiding different?

18

I don’t think face hiding is different - as long as the issue is face hiding, and not the burqua. If a society or institution has a rule that says a person may not hide their face in a particular situation, (I’ve seen stores and banks with such a rule, and I’ve heard of it for ID photos) or even in all situations then I don’t have a problem with that rule applying to a burka. But if I can wear a Halloween mask, a ski mask or a hockey helmet, or wrap a winter scarf around my face, then I see no reason why a burqa should be different. I mean , it’s not like you can walk around with your dong hanging out as long as your reason isn’t religious- you can’t do it regardless of the reason

19

I see your point. I also, though, think that the human face is fundamental to participation in society. Perhaps if it WERE treated like any other mask it would be fine, but it’s not treated that way.

20

There are countries (again, Holland as an example) where there is a law against covering the face. I think it actually says you are not allowed to walk the streets “incognito”. This law is just not enforced during Halloween etc. The law is also not currently enforced when women decide to cover their faces, but it could be. It would be up to the person interpreting the law I guess, to say whether religiously covering the face falls under that law.