It's because she's not white.

This is a sort of response to this thread and, specifically (in a roundabout way), this post. There’s a big-ass disclaimer at the end if you want to fast-forward, but you’ll miss me vainly attempting to make a point.

Lots of people dress it up in a lot of different words, but when all the equivocations are stripped down to bare bones the fact of the matter is that eleanorigby’s Pakistani acquaintance is not white, not Christian, eats weird food and, perhaps, dresses funny. Therefore she cannot possibly celebrate that most English of feast days.

I see this all the time. I see it posts on this board, where someone will type hateful words against an entire group of people because of one stereotypical point of a person’s social class, skin color, language, religion, place of birth, or accent. I hear it from family members, one of whom told me a couple of months ago me that every Muslim wants to kill every Christian. I read it in comments on my local daily paper’s internal message board, where any article that deigns to mention a name that sounds even vaguely Muslim or Latino results in dozens or hundreds of comments with an over-arching sentiment of “Paki go home” from people whose real names end with –ski or -son.

I am fucking tired of it.

I’ve been working with our local refugee population for a while now. About a year and a half ago I met a guy at a bar who told me that Somalis are un-American, don’t want to even be American, and don’t salute the flag…but he didn’t say anything about the many local Somalis who have volunteered to serve in our armed forces, or about the families whose wish to put down roots here are so strong they’ve bought houses here – and break their religious laws regarding interest to do so. He told me that not only do Somalis take too many of our tax dollars, they don’t even have to pay taxes the first five years they’re here (which came as a surprise to my friend Mohamed, the guy who has a business helping fresh-off-the-plane Somali refugees file taxes). He told me that not only do Somalis not speak English, they don’t want to learn how to speak English despite the fact that there is a LENGTHY waiting list for ESL classes around here.

I mean, people actually believe this bullshit despite all evidence to the contrary – the thousands of dollars paid to immigration and lawyers to obtain citizenship; the tremendous effort to find a job to support their typically large families (I mean, seriously – if you’ve spent your adult life practicing law or nursing or teching, do you REALLY expect that the best job you can get in your new home is $10 an hour cutting up chickens?); trying to navigate the things with which even locals can have difficulties, like getting a drivers license, car insurance, job applications, and telephone hookup.

People around here forget that their agrarian grandparents didn’t speak English until they started public schooling; people around here forget that our early 19th-century election ballots were issued in French, German, Polish, Swedish, Norwegian, or any one of a dozen languages (I mean, fucking hell – my maternal grandfather’s birth certificate is in German, and he was born in Minnesota in 1920!); people around here forget that everyone – no matter the exterior stuff that designates a person as an “other” – wants to get up in the morning; feed the kids breakfast; send them off to school; go to work at a job that will pay rent and put food on the table; return home; watch a little TV; argue with the spouse; and go to bed. And do all of that without the threat of getting shot while picking up a gallon of cooking oil on the way home from work.

No matter what my good friend Fadumo does – her volunteer work, her job history, her English skills, her education, her intelligence, her guts, her humor – she will never be comfortable attending this city’s 4th of July fireworks simply because some asshole, like that guy in the bar, is going to say something about her clothes or her skin color or her accent. Each and every time I’ve tried to talk her into going to an event like this her response is along the lines of “But not everyone is like you”, which is code for “I would love it if my American-born son could participate in the same activities your niece does, but I’m scared shitless to venture out of my cultural zone because I’ve had quite enough violence in my short refugee life, thank you very much”.

I sent an earlier draft of this to a much-more-level-headed friend of mine who told me “I think you’re kind of goin’ off the deep end some” and I probably am. I’m tired and I’m cranky and I’ve had a long, insanely busy week. The problem is that Cabdiasiis told me something yesterday that was, for me, the last goddamn straw:

Caabdiasiis recently graduated from university and is applying for jobs in his field. As he was leaving one place of employment he saw, reflected in the glass entry door as he was walking out, the receptionist shred the application he had just completed. If there’s no evidence of an application there’s no evidence of discrimination, right?

I am no longer going to sit here at my computer and silently seethe when I see a post declaring that political correctness has gone amuck. I’m incredibly sad and I’m incredibly angry that strong, intelligent people are denied the opportunities I take for granted simply because of their skin color or their religion or their mothers’ locale when she gave birth.

So here’s the disclaimer:

There is no way for me to adequately describe why and how eleanorigby’s “I don’t get it” post set me off without delineating years of experience working with subordinate populations. I’m in no way pitting her or her post; it’s just yet another example of “Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?” - a facet of life that I can see so clearly because of my proximity to the issue yet seems to be beyond the ken of many people.

Likewise, I’m not pitting chowder - he’s English and he’s proud of that (and hates ManUre even more than I do. :D) - but he also knows of the connection between the St. George flag, the BNP, and right-wing/fascist football hooliganism and chose not to mention that. I hope that symbol can be wrenched away from its less-savory connotations, but I guarantee you that it will go the way of the Confederate battle flag and the godwin alert Nazi swastika until we as human beings choose to spend more time considering our commonalities and dismiss our very minor differences as trivialities.

resigned sigh

Ok, I think I’ve typed out my anger and frustration now.

Nitpick: it’s not eleanorigby’s acquaintance, as such; it’s someone she heard on the radio discussing her discomfort celebrating the day.

Your friend needs to talk to a lawyer about this. If they did it to him, they have done it to other people. Even if no other people can be found, the fact that they don’t have his application is pretty good evidence in and of itself. It also strikes me as the sort of company that would be very open to a sting operation.

Really, that is the height of stupidity of a company. Ignoring the fact that they are quite possibly missing out on the best candidate for a position, to leave a trail in that manner is idiotic in the extreme.

Reminds me of one employer I went to. One of the interviewers told me in the interview itself that I was perfect for the job, but that he would not recommend me because I had an English accent. I ended up getting the job, but had I not, telling the candidate that is not the smartest thing in the world to do…

That sucks. I’ve got no dog in this fight, but if that is a prevailing attitude, then it’s gonna take a long, long time for acceptance. There might be nasty words, there might even be a few fistfights, but in America we DO have law and order. Immigrants will only be as accepted as the effort they make to assimilate into the local culture. Forming enclaves where they feel comfortable, and exclude others only fosters the mistrust and ignorance that bigots feed on.

I’m pretty sure that eleanorigby doesn’t live in the UK, so I don’t see how it’s very ignorant of her not to be familiar with these issues. I’m perplexed by the comments she quotes as well, because I don’t live anywhere near the UK–even though I’m very interested and have done a good bit of reading on it.

The government isn’t going to do jack with such little evidence.

Discrimination against race and gender is usually uncatchable. My wife’s company quite openly discriminates against women; she’s pretty much been told in so many words that her level of management is as high as a woman is allowed to go. But how can you prove it? They aren’t big enough to prove anything statistically.

Who mentioned the government? There is a civil action waiting to happen here. I bet they keep the resumes of applicants on file. His won’t be there. Send in another non-white candidate, and see what happens to that resume.

With fee swqitching statutes for this kind of thing, I would think finding a lawyer to at least look into this would be possible. If I were an employment lawyer, I would take the case, as the company is going to settle pretty damn quickly if there is any kind of merit here.

I agree with the OP. I’m not going to get into it, I don’t have time, but I am E. Indian and often feel the same way exactly.

I’m not really sure how I feel about this issue. As a student I disapproved of the Korean student community on campus, because they had the attitude of, “You’re either with us or against us.” Such communities do tend to encourage their members to stick to their cultural comfort zones. On the other hand, moving to the US with no ties here whatsoever is somewhat of an ordeal. Immigrant communities always welcome other immigrants with open arms. They help each other out with jobs, children, food, and all sorts of other day-to-day things that can be overwhelming for those first arriving in the country. I don’t think discouraging ethnic neighborhoods is going to fix anything.

Besides, I thought Americans liked ethnic neighborhoods. That’s where all the good food is. :stuck_out_tongue:

Oops. :stuck_out_tongue:

  1. What RickJay said.
  2. As Caabdiasiis put it, “I don’t want to work for a business like that, anyhow.” And, really, he has a point. Would YOU want to work for a company so blatantly racist?
  3. Not the first time I’ve heard this story regarding local businesses. A former acquaintance of mine put herself through secretary school in Chicago by working at Red Lobster but couldn’t find a waitressing OR secretarial job in this town for love or money. It wasn’t until after she told me about it that I realized I had never seen an African American waitress here. There’s a reason this town is nicknamed “White Cloud”.

And how long, exactly, should a single mother of a toddler bang her head against a wall before she decides she can put her time to better, safer use? Why do you think places like Chinatowns and Jewish quarters came into existence?

I thought I had explained it well enough in the OP, but maybe not. What perplexes you?

It doesn’t work that way. As an American living in Japan for about 20 years in total, you can see mistrust, ignorance and bigots no matter how much you interact with the majority.

There are enough cultural and social differences, on top of linguistic difficulties that a quick assimilation into a radically different culture is extremely difficult if not impossible. Were we all wealthy with no need to spend our days working and could devote our time to working on assimilation (which does take work) instead of a day job, then the process may be easier, but it takes time, often a couple of generations for immigrants.

Have you ever lived in another culture? Every single time I walk outside, even if all I want in the world is to buy a few tomatos for my dinner, I get yelled “Hey white lady” or “Ehhhh Chinese!” Every time I show up at a party or restaurant or even get on a bus, I know everyone is asking “What is SHE doing here?” Everywhere I go I get hounded by people weilding American stereotypes- that I am rich, I can take them to America, I can marry them tomorrow, I know how to identify the weird rock they found, I can get them Jennifer Lopez’s phone number, I know “Tom” from Ohio who they used to know ten years ago. There is no break. It is a constant in my life.

There are a very few places where I feel comfotable and able to be myself. These are with my co-workers, who have gotten used to me and are often outsiders of some sort themselves, and with other Americans.

Now, I wear Africa clothes, but on weekends i wear jeans and tee shirts. I celebrate Tabaski, but I’m also having my own Cinqo de Mayo party- and I don’t feel bad about not inviting my Cameroonian friends. Nothing kills a party like nobody knowing what language they should speak. I speak Fulfulde and French, but I’m not going to start following the French soap operas on TV or getting into Hausa music.

Living in another culture is probably one of the hardest things possible- it shakes your very identity. And that is before you get to other people harassing you. Cut immigrants some slack when they want to not be a freak for a few minutes- you’d want exactly the same thing.

I understood the ‘paranoia’ comment right off, the walking part was explained in later posts, but the “STOP THE BRITISH FOOD RIP OFF” was never explained at all. :confused:

Wow I can’t say I’m amazed at how quickly I got jumped. I have lived in areas where I was a foreigner. The important thing is to continually make an effort. That means learning enough of the language to get by. It means learning enough of the customs to not offend. It means trying out new experiences continually despite resistance; and it means shrugging off the commentary of ignorant people.

Last time I checked, in America we don’t have ethnic cleansing, roving gangs of cultural enforcers armed with machine guns, or death squads. Citizens, and legal immigrants have a right to the protection of the police, and we have laws to enforce that. Our culture does not permit violence or discrimination on the level that these people may be used to. I have nothing but sympathy for the immigrant who has come from a war-torn area to escape that horror. Once here though, they have an obligation to work to improve their situation in a country that is free from that sort of oppression.

That means continually exposing, and immersing both themselves and their children to the common culture, and language of their new home. It means keeping a positive outlook for their children, and ensuring that they have the opportunities to assimilate. This will be frequently difficult, occasionally painful, often disappointing, but rarely in the united states will it be dangerous.

It does not mean keeping themselves and their children away from everything and forming an exclusive enclave. It does not mean trading their children’s future opportunities for the sake of their comfort. What do you expect people to think when immigrants who do not share anything much in common with them will not interact?

My Great Grandparents immigrated from Russia in the 1920’s. At that time neither spoke English. They settled into a small town in upstate New York; and while they shared their culture fellow immigrant neighbors, they ensured that their children were assimilated. By the end of their lives, both of them spoke fluent, if heavily accented English. They could read and write in both Cyrillic and English. My grandparents spoke both Russian and English in the home, as did my father. They enjoyed all the cultural customs, and religious observances of their community while ensuring that they became accessible to their non Slavic neighbors. I can speak and understand some Slavonic (used in the Eastern orthodox church), and celebrate the Russian customs with my family.

They did it then. They can do it today.

Many refugees I know are spending most of their time on other obligations. Nothing important; just food, clothing, shelter, and child care. When are they supposed to fit “make native populations not hate them” into their time schedule?

So did mine. Perhaps you missed where I talked about grampa’s Minnesota birth certificate being issued in German. Grampa was white and Christian and, even though he was pushing 90 when he died, was smart enough to realize that the issues facing non-white, non-Christian immigrants in 2006 were significantly different than the issues that his 1st generation immigrant parents faced in 1900.

And now I’m sitting here and getting mad again. Acid Lamp, what, exactly, does Cabdiasiis need to do go gain your approval? Is that really his job? Maybe, perhaps yes. But…what are you doing to show him that you accept him as a fellow citizen? Isn’t the $5k in immigration and lawyer fees, separation from family and friends, landing in an utterly alien community, and gaining education and employment and voting and paying taxes enough? Does he turn into a white, blonde, blue-eyed, pork-eating-all-Somalis-suck! Christian before he’s American?

Trust me, he wants to know. Exactly what and how much does this first-generation Muslim Somali refugee have to give up before you consider him “American”?

You are out of line. I never suggested anything of the sort, and frankly your hyperbole is offensive as hell.

My comments were never directed at him, but rather at Fadumo and her child. You don’t have to “block out” time to do “American” things for og’s sake. Perhaps one week it means shopping at the supermarket instead of the local enthic mini-market for groceries and including western meals that meet her dietary restrictions. She can practice her English and try something new. Her son will benefit from having been exposed to foods his classmate’s take for granted as usual. Maybe one week they go to a free city sponsored event, get over the fear, and enjoy a day out with the 90% of their fellow citizens who are not racist, enthocentric, bigots. Perhaps they go to a museum for a few hours, or have him take a class at the Y if his English is good enough. Perhaps they listen to a neutral program on the radio like NPR’s All Things Considered, or save a few dollars and catch a kid-friendly matinee. All I ever ask of anyone regardless of their background is that they meet us halfway by getting out there and interacting.

Being an Immigrant is NEVER easy ANYWHERE. Isolating yourself in a comfort zone though is never the way to get along.

OK - let me rephrase it. He has a pretty good cause of action (I would imagine) if he chose to sue, though if he doesn’t want to, obviously it is up to him. Having a bunch of resumes on file, and having disposed of the non-white ones would be pretty close to a smoking gun off the top of my head.

But I agree - he probably wouldn’t want to work there.

In Singapore I read somewhere,the various ethnic groups that make up the population are banned by law from all living in certain neighbourhoods to prevent ghettoisation and to stop any ethnic group from staying detached from the mainstream culture.

From what I’ve seen in the media it appears to work well.

During the Malayan crisis the communist terrorists tended to be ethnic Chinese as opposed to the rest of the population,maybe thats why Singapore brought this law in but just a guess on my part.

Do we really WANT a well-established, signifiantly large Muslim population in the US? Hell, they’re worse than the Catholics when it comes to having backward sexual memes entrenched in their culture.

Sale on broad brushes? Islam is not practiced the same way everywhere in the world.