How should the Pit be changed, if at all?

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@puzzlegal

Please report this. No mod is going to notice a pattern like this unless they, too, are following you around.

Sounds good, but this is virtually impossible to prove. Not anyone’s fault, just the way that message boards, particularly where snark is allowed, works. Someone saying something snarky to someone else is just posting in the thread. Posting multiple times in multiple threads to the same person is still just posting in a thread.

If you have suggestions or examples on what would be actionable, I’m seriously interested.

@Babale

Gotcha, so are there any particularly harsh posts towards Roo in that thread that really crossed a line?

Because MY recollection is that despite being moved to the Pit the thread actually has very few if any personal attacks against Roo.

I just noticed this post. It seems like “harsh” only happens to people you like. Everyone else deserves what they get. But this would not be allowed outside the Pit.

Know of any good places to post controversial topics, especially for anti-Pit people?

Also, @Heffalump_and_Roo - it’s hard to read this thread as anything other than shit-stirring. Yes, this is the Pit, and yes, I am accusing you of trolling.

Nor this.

Know of any good places to post controversial topics, especially for anti-Pit people?

I’ve been reading along, wondering why nobody mentioned the elephant in the room, then @Sunny_Daze did.

Just to be clear, I’m not complaining about this. I’m just pointing this out because you brought it up.

@puzzlegal

I’m not saying that it isn’t hurtful to be called a bigot, but i don’t think the hurt towards that person is the purpose.

I do, in some cases. Even if it isn’t the sole intention, it gets swept under the rug. No one can read minds about what people’s intentions are.

@puzzlegal

The part of your post that was reported, and that the mods thought was ranty, was, you said, necessary to describe why you were looking for another place to post.

I just thought it was explanatory. I will also point out that the revised thread in IMHO that I posted on the advice of the mods got exactly 1 reply and 108 views. It’s past dead.

@puzzlegal

Many posters seem to feel that they like to post in the pit so that they can make their points clearly.

Many posters seem to feel like they like to post outside the pit so they can make their points clearly, without the insults, invective, jokes, off-topic posts and name-calling.

Different strokes for different folks. As I noted in that other thread, I posted solely in the Pit for a couple years. I can see why both kinds of posters have their preferences.

@puzzlegal

I’ve barely spent any time in the pit, and I’m a little surprised that there’s so much rancor about it (on both sides). But probably my ignorance is showing.

My wag is that Discourse is exacerbating the problem. In the past, the Pit was walled off from the rest of the forum. If you posted outside the Pit, you could be blissfully unaware of it. But now, people can mention you in the Pit or link your post there, and now you can’t ignore it as easily because of the notification system. So now the two worlds are colliding.

As I go out to other forums to see how they’re handling the problem, I’m acutely aware that I’m unaware of their culture and how that colors what I’m seeing. It’s hard to take part without thinking that I’m stepping on some cultural norm I’m not aware of.

[puzzlegal]

@Heffalump_and_Roo

As I go out to other forums to see how they’re handling the problem,

Having participated in several other message boards, by far the most common way of handling issues like trolling or subtle racism is that the mods just delete the offensive posts. And if a poster racks up too many, the poster is deleted. But you don’t SEE that XYZ sometimes drops racial slurs because those posts quietly go away.

And on most boards, commenting on moderation is also actionable.

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

You’ve posted that a number of times. Until I’ve gone looking, I had not been on a single forum like that. Every forum I’ve ever been on looks at posts as sacrosanct. And every forum I’ve ever been on had the ability to comment on moderation at some level.

This idea of removing posts or editing posts is new to me, and maybe new to message boards. I’ve been on dozens over the years that don’t have the rules that you describe. Only since I’ve been looking recently have I seen this as a policy on a couple message boards, but I think that’s because they’re commercial boards. I wonder if this is the effect of commercialization on social media.

[puzzlegal]

Could be. This is the only forum I’ve ever posted on where posts are sacrosanct. Or maybe i just never noticed? It’s not as if i commonly write posts that get moderated. But certainly both vbulletin and discourse make it easy for moderators to edit other posts. (And by default, make it easy for posters to edit their own posts, for that matter.)

Facebook, the one forum that rules them all, deletes posts.

Old fashioned email lists obviously don’t.

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

I created a poll to continue this conversation here.

Do other message boards you post on delete posts and/or allow you to question moderation?

Continuing the discussion from How should the Pit be changed, if at all?: puzzlegal and I are discussing other message boards and whether they delete posts and allow you to question moderation. puzzlegal says that most message boards she has posted on deletes posts and doesn’t allow for questioning of moderation. My experience is the opposite. Two public polls. One for deleting posts. One for questioning moderation. poll poll

[Babale]

@Heffalump_and_Roo

I just noticed this post. It seems like “harsh” only happens to people you like. Everyone else deserves what they get. But this would not be allowed outside the Pit.

I didn’t say the Pit was “harsh” to people I like. Are you remembering something someone else said?

I don’t think the Pit is too harsh on anyone, whether it’s people I like or not. The Pit is the Pit.

[kayaker]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

@DrDeth

You don’t know what thread you are in either, do you?

For what it’s worth, this sort of comment is really unhelpful

Actually, it is helpful. It’s the sort of comment that belongs in the Pit, not ATMB.

[DrDeth]

@puzzlegal

And on most boards, commenting on moderation is also actionable.

I was on one MB, I think it was TWoP, and yeah, any comment about moderation is a bad thing.

OTOH, in one FRP site, they have a special forum for it, just like here.

[Guinastasia]

Questioning ANYTHING on TWoP was a bad thing, to be fair. They were extremely anal.

[Saintly_Loser]

@puzzlegal

Many posters seem to feel that they like to post in the pit so that they can make their points clearly.

I’ve noticed this.

I’m not griping about any poster in particular, but it certainly does seem that some posters are, if not exactly at their best, at their most energetic and enthused in the Pit.

For me, I feel that if I can’t make my point within the guidelines for posting outside the Pit, if I can’t communicate without near-absolute freedom from standards of decent online behavior, either my point isn’t worth making or I need to work on my writing skills.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Babale

Agreed, low blows based on real life trauma are too far and should be moderated even in the Pit (and, to be fair to Miller, I think he’s generally done a good job with that)

I disagree strongly with that. Although he/she (I don’t know) may generally be good at that, it’s my belief that he/she, at least one time, allowed something based on real-life trauma to pass, even though it was reported.

I do not doubt that Miller has a different perspective on the incident, and can defend that perspective. It didn’t feel that way to me. And yes, I get that my feelings aren’t the standards by which mods are bound.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Saintly_Loser

I disagree strongly with that. Although he/she (I don’t know) may generally be good at that, it’s my belief that he/she, at least one time, allowed something based on real-life trauma to pass, even though it was reported.

I do not doubt that Miller has a different perspective on the incident, and can defend that perspective. It didn’t feel that way to me. And yes, I get that my feelings aren’t the standards by which mods are bound.

I want to tone down what I’m saying here – I should have said “I disagree a bit with that, and I’m not 100% convinced, but I think that he/she, at least one time. . …”

[Miller]

“He.”

I’ve definitely made bad calls in the past, and will certainly do so in the future. Always willing to discuss any moderation action I’ve taken, but no guarantee that I’ll change my mind.

[yarblek]

Why can’t linking to pit threads be simply not allowed if disabling the function is not something that can done? I feel like even seeing a pit link underneath a post contributes to an unwelcome board atmosphere and goes against the ‘attack the post, not the poster’ idea.

It feels dishonest for people to simultaneously say if you don’t like the pit, don’t go there but at the same time make a lot of effort to get certain posters to read some very specific threads in the pit by constantly linking (many) of their posts to them.

[crowmanyclouds]

Sadly, those links don’t force anyone to click on them.
Also, it long been a board courtesy to, publically, tell a Pitee that they’ve been Pitted.

[DrDeth]

“courtesy”? It is to laugh. Please.

[D_Anconia]

Agree 100%. How is it at all courteous to announce that you’re going to mock someone and call them vile names?

[puzzlegal]

@yarblek

Why can’t linking to pit threads be simply not allowed

That could be done. But it would cripple to ability of posters to discuss what happened in another thread if they can’t post a link in the pit to the post they want to discuss. And sadly, that ALSO creates and auto-link in the original thread, in Discourse.

I mean, in most cases, it’s not sad. But it is in this one.

[crowmanyclouds]

Umm, is it more courteous to do it behind their back?

[DrDeth]

It is more courteous to not do it at all.

In any case, such a link is more or less a insult.