In a like manner, my uncle is a stubborn-- er, I mean determined Trump supporter who has refused to wear seatbelts ever since they became mandatory. It isn’t that he doesn’t believe it can happen to him (before they were required he rolled his International Scout half a dozen times and the seatbelt was what saved his life). Now he refuses which has to do with governmental 'overreach" – which the Trump administration never did according to him with this excuse: “If it is my time so be it, the good Lord will do as he wills if I wear the damn thing or not.” (To get the full effect picture Charlie Daniels saying it as this uncle emulated him in style, voice, and political view to near perfection.)
Of course!
Just ask my circle of Trump supporting friends and family who will tell you that U.S. Grant was the last genuine president of the United States! (Okay, they are not all that deluded- but some are and the rest could get there if their world views fails further, This is something of a holy war for many of them and this is their crusade. But instead of removing infidels from Jerusalem they are removing infidels [Socialist libtards] from Washington [and many seem to consider our nation’s capitol to be the New Jerusalem.]).
Is there any doubt that those whom we call insurrectionists [and millions more like them] picture themselves as mounted knights on armored steeds bearing lance and sword against the unbelieving infidels of Socialism? Face it, they make the hero of Cervantes look positively well grounded, reality based, and sane. Like the ancient Bishop’s of Rome they want to rid the world of heretics like Fauci and fill his roll in the medical community with Paula White or Robert Jeffress. Hard to imagine they would be hard to reason with isn’t it?
Given the means, Trump supporters will cause a new dark ages and once again peasants will not be allowed to read so they are not inclined to resist the guidance of their ruling class (believers- or as they phrase it, “The Church Triumphant”).
And we’re back to the acting against their own interest puzzle. After all there aren’t 75-million oligarchs in this country. I think the lubrul tears meme fits most of them.
Speaking of which, today I just happened to discover Cipolla’s Basic Laws of Human Stupidity, which assert:
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Written 40 years before Trump’s election, btw.
I think we are talking past each other here somehow. I am talking about people who don’t even consider their own best interest – they care about their cause which is devotion to the divine being. They venerate martyrs for goodness sake- the exact opposite of self interest. None of those in power during the dark ages thought they were doing anything wrong, on the contrary they were following the teachings of the supreme being from the Bible!! What use did they have for science, or justice, or humanities? To elevate human achievement was blasphemy! Human achievement indeed, what are humans but imperfect images of the one true GOD!!
Can you not see how clearly the modern Republican Party mirrors those who fomented the Dark Ages? Abandoning the thought and ideals of ancient Greece, abandoning Democracy for an authoritative church run government? Soon they will be burning all books that are not the bible- or about the bible if left to their own devices. Next the slogan “Out of Many; One” will be banned in favor of “In God We Trust” not just on the money- but on our souls.
I am serious when I say that my observation of some of these folks indicates to me they really do believe this is a holy war. They believe that Satan has caused my eyes (and the eyes of Adam Kinzinger) to be blinded to HIS magnificence and HIS use of DJ Trump to rid the world of all non-Christian beliefs, policies, and desires.
The Muslim travel ban and various other policies are the modern equivalent of Europe’s Crusades back in the day right down to war profiteering (although returning soldiers are less likely to be selling chips of wood as a fragment of the true cross upon which Christ was crucified). Many right wing political groups would prefer a government based upon their interpretation of the bible rather than the secular government we are supposed to have. They want to eliminate the entire Department of Education and reduce public schools to zero – replacing them with religious indoctrination centers they call “Christian Schools”. Guess how much STEM education those fine Christian institutions will teach! Every graduate will know the Lord’s Prayer – but none of them will know algebra or astrophysics and certainly none of them will understand evolutionary biology.
They want their religion to rule supreme-- that is their self interest. Being sold a fabricated con of how Trump is somehow God’s man is just the supposition that is accepted without doubt because slick TV preachers they respect say it is so. So their self interest is to eliminate the secular government to have a Christian Theocracy in its place. America after all “was founded as a Christian Nation!”
They want the liberal tears because liberals are godless infidels who worship mankind!! They do not believe in the beloved God of Abraham, Issac, and Joseph – they believe in socialized medicine and welfare mothers eating steak and driving Cadillac’s without working for anything they have! Liberals want to kidnap and rape poor innocent Christian babies then drink their blood. They don’t hate liberals for being liberal – they hate liberals for denying the power and glory and supremacy (not to mention the existence) of GOD!!
I do not know a single Trumpist who is not a religious zealot, although the idea of a militarily strong and patriotic United States seems to be as much a part of their religion as the parts found in the bible. Above their fireplaces, instead of a painting of Elvis on black velvet or dogs playing poker and smoking cigars, they have a painting of the Last Supper with Republican politicians as the disciples. Older paintings have Mitt Romney as Judas – newer ones have Adam Kinzinger as Judas. (Trump would be – actually Paul but he isn’t in the painting, Reagan would be Peter, James and John might be the Koch brothers or might be Steve Bannon and Mark Meadows. Nixon would be . . . one of the disciples was a tax collector, who should be him? Larry Kudlow?)
This is a good point. They straight up say that they look forward to the day that they can sit up in heaven and watch their enemies suffer in hell. Their very idea of heaven is having a front row to enjoy the torment of others.
But they can’t wait, and want to bring hell to Earth.
Firstly I don’t think all or even necessarily most of the “pwn the libtards” crowd are really very religious in the spiritual sense or if they are it’s pretty superficial. Secondly their dislike comes from envy and xenophobia not religious principles.
For the most part religious people use their religion as a tool of their earthly emotions and desires.
A significant number of Trump supporters are the 4chan type - people who like lulz, Boaty McBoatface and Pepe the Frog/virgin/Chad memes, hardly what one might call religious. But you are spot on about the rest of the Christian nationalism part. Books have been written about it on the left and right (both Kristen Kobes du Mez, a lefty who wrote Jesus and John Wayne, and Gregory Boyd, a rightie who wrote The Myth of a Christian Nation.)
Christian nationalism is usually a blend of the following assumptions/tenets:
America is a Christian nation;
America must be kept a Christian nation through legislative/governmental means, not merely societal influence;
If America stays Christian, she will be blessed by God with power and success.
Disaster and harm often befalls America due to America turning away from God (there are Biblical parallels here; Israel was often invaded/struck with disasters repeatedly in Scripture due to abandoning God and worshipping idols.)
It’s not just America either. I know a Trump voter who argues that South Korea is a successful nation because of its high percentage of Christian populace.
I have not found that to be the case in my little backwater corner of the world. I also find that their “religious principles” are not mutually exclusive with more base and unenlightened motives. In addition, my observations indicate there are no longer orthodox and heterodox beliefs. Things are changing faster than ever before several books I have recommended here on the SDMB indicate a direct effort on the part of the Christian right to use the Republican Party to further their agenda. They as a whole are about as subtle and about as trustworthy as Tucker Carlson. (And like Carlson they really like a macho version of Christianity and of America. Turning the other cheek is out – conquering the world for Jesus is in.)
Jesus and John Wayne by: Kristen Kobes DuMez
Unholy by: Sarah Posner
The Power Worshipers by: Katherine Stewart
And there are more. I still have The Family on my reading list for the future for example (which was recommended by someone here on the Dope, as was Power Worshipers). I was quite deeply immersed in this culture at one time and still have many friends from my Bible College days. Like Franky Schaeffer I have taken a turn toward the Orthodox (then went beyond him and followed Bart Ehrmann into atheism).
Listen, I don’t believe it is all believers- not by a long shot. And to your point the ones who are all hyped up on this are not always the most studious followers of Christ. But I personally know way too many believers who are just as I described. Apart from them I have interacted with believers on this board who are sincere and knowledgeable and who’s views I respect. I have also interacted with at least one believer who tries to be reasonable - - but will always revert to some version of what he wants to be true despite all the evidence to the contrary. Trump supporters are not a monolith, but there are a few broad categories that gives the group its power:
~You have the elected officials at all levels who know it is bullshit but forcefully state it to win votes.
~You have good patriotic “Christian” believers who seldom attend church but say prayers over their meals who are more than willing to take up arms to support their view of America’s future.
~You have sincere conservatives who don’t like Trump but hate and fear progressives even more.
~You have People who believe Paula White and Robert Jeffress and are told: at this time in history God Almighty has chosen Trump to set the United States, then North America, then the Western Hemisphere, and eventually the whole world on the path to righteousness.
~ You have flat out racists who come from a long line of Birchers and KKK families (I am acquainted with two different families in this vein who don’t know each other).
And I am sure there are others I am overlooking at the moment. Despite my sincere efforts I still get an occasional e-mail postulating some insane theory or imagined insult to the faithful.
Trump brought all these groups together (with the help of Bannon and others) and people who believe God wants His people to do for Him are people who will go to great lengths. Read the Old Testament sometime if you want to hear some horror movie shit and be introduced to a petty, warlord like deity. People who admire the guy who was going to murder his own son as a sacrifice (talk about family values!) until a ram appeared are likely to do anything to accomplish their goals and if Trump is God’s will then Trump by any means necessary!!
(Sorry. I started to sermonize there at the end!)
Huh. All of the Trumpists I know claim to be Christian, but they are certainly not zealots. In fact, I would guess that well over half of them don’t go to church on a regular basis, and could probably quote the Bible as well as Trump himself (Remember “Two Corinthians”?). Of course, America’s path to ruin started with the banning of mandatory prayers in public schools and has only gotten worse when the Ten Commandments had to be removed from the courthouses.
These folks are zealous in their praise and defense of Trump, but their religion? Not so much.
Well, I have started another shit storm, sorry. I try to stay away (was successful for a month), then just read for a while-- but finally I felt compelled to weigh in.
Well this was all well said, and while I was typing my list you posted one of the same books I did. I am not familiar with the list at the top of your post (or I know them without their nicknames). As always, interested to learn from you so please share more. (I have already put Gregory Boyd on my future reading list.) Thank you for making the point with considerably less verbiage.
You and I agree. In fact I agree with everything you stated above especially the lament over school prayer and courthouse commandments. But when I speak of zealots- I speak of those who have Trumperism as their religion. They believe that all Americans are born Christians and no fancy book learning is necessary (unless God calls you to preach). They also believe all Arabs are born Muslim and trained to hate the true believers because they are descended from the bastard son.
My ex-wife and I prayed and fasted for my sister to become a believer once she had a child. And for years I got to regret that decision because she was often drunk, loud, and wrong on every topic especially Christendom. She knew Jesus loved her and forgave her and that was that. She also believed welfare should be abolished (while receiving disability checks), charity begins (and finishes) at home, whites are the most Christian and most patriotic, etc. Within a three iron of my house I can find a dozen or more families just the same. My point is that practicing the religious sacraments are not vital (or even important) it is the intention and the attitude.
Look at the people you personally know who fit into the category you describe in your post. I am willing to bet most of them never learned the lesson the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would further wager they are not familiar with the scripture *broad is the path and wide is the gate which leads to damnation but narrow the path and small the gate which leads to eternal life." I am sure I buggered that all up, it has been a while. I am going to guess it is from Matthew - - - and YES!! The Gospel of Matthew chapter 7, verse 13-14.
They are kind of Zealots because they are not well versed in the faith. But they are told by religious leaders Trump is an important figure during an important time and ta dah-- over investment in something they barely grasp!!
When I hear the term ‘religious zealot’, I think of someone who is fanatic in their following of an organized religion, be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism or any other religious sect, not the followers of a person who is the leader of a political and/or social movement. Obviously your definition is quite broader than mine.
I am willing to bet that most, if not all, of them have heard that phrase. Whether they learned a lesson from it is highly unlikely. Whether anybody learns a lesson from a proverb such as this is highly unlikely.
I would further wager that many, if not most, of them attended Sunday School as a child and either heard this teaching and/or had to memorize that Bible verse, like I did. But probably very few remember it and certainly none of them try to live their life trying to keep on the narrow road. Which is kinda exactly my point.
But your point about their zealotry toward Trump and all that he stands for is well taken. And God is a helluva guy to have on your side.
You are correct that I phrased things in a sloppy manner, unfortunately I cannot apologize for it- it is just how I speak. But I can apologize for the misunderstanding and that I do.
I am well aware that churches this coming weekend will have fuller attendance than at any other time of year. But those Christmas, Easter, Marriage, and Funeral attenders are the perfect fodder for religious zealotry. In my interaction and observation they seem to be rationalizing:
Well, I may not go to church every week, but I am good person and my heart is in the right place and God knows that. I realize this Trump character is full of shit most of the time – but if all these preachers and those believers who DO go to church say he is our modern day prophet, than gol dang I am going to support the shit out of him!
What he says reminds them of little overheard and seldom understood adult conversation from their childhood. Their childhood when things were much better in their memories. Also I am privy to untold thousands of fear based e-mails sent among this secular Christian crowd and they all say the same thing- Trump is our only hope. Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and Schumar are Darth Vader; Trump is Han Solo AND Luke Skywalker combined!!
AGGG! If only I could express this! If they knew the teachings of Jesus better they would have a more skeptical view of Trump. They think the Disciples were named: Peter, John, James, Doc, Sleepy, Grumpy, Sneezy, Bashful, and Dopey. They are exactly zealots concerning Trump because they are lax in other aspects of their religion (notice I did not say faith). That is not to say that very devout followers of Christ are not also supporters of Trump. But the crazy ones are one part “good old religion”, one part white nationalism, and one part macho militarism. They would describe themselves as devoted Christians even if you or I (and certainly most mainstream Christians) would not.
I was suspended from a Christian message board a few months ago because I pointed out to them that all the prophets who claimed that God had told them Trump would be reelected last November were, by definition, false prophets.
But he was elected…
You can never be wrong as long as you deny reality.
Cannot have anyone telling the absolute truth on their message board! Not about to put up with inconvenient honesty !
Oh I know, I have a white southern father myself (71 years old). I’ve given up trying to convince him. But this summer we had a spat about me taking COVID seriously, and him not. His tagline (ripped straight from Fox news I’m sure) was “Everybody’s gonna die sometime.”
I know for a goddamn fact he doesn’t want to die, and he’s not volunteering his own life for the stock market. He has grandkids he wants to see, he has a life, he has parents of his own who depend on him, and he doesn’t want anybody involved to die. He just wants to be defiant and win the argument about those dangone gummint reg’lations. Although being alive is important to him, life for him isn’t worth living if liberals are going to tell him what to do.
I’ve given up on begging these people to protect their own lives and interests. That’s between them and their god. If they insist on having an in-person meeting with him to discuss it, I’m not positioned to do anything about it, and you know what? I just can’t care anymore. It’s too exhausting.
‘It’s working! We win!’
One of the most critical Articles of Faith for this group. Ain’t nobody telling me, how to live.
One of the cleverest tricks in fascism is to have those who are reduced to cogs in the machine, hear themselves be celebrated as paragons of indvidualism.
Listen to this or read the transcript of the Raul Rodriguez story.
It is absolute amazing, mind-blowing and utterly revealing of what you’re dealing with when a Trumper is confronted with the ultimate truth. It’s…something.
Spoiler: Some people really get what they deserve in the story. It’s very sadly satisfying?
So yeah, after listening to that, I now understand that some people will only trust you if you metaphorically beat them within an inch of their lives because brute strength is what they respond to. We at the SDMB are not about that life, so it’s a losing battle.