How to make people comply without force

In My Humble Opinion
1

First off, I am not saying violence is the correct answer, but I am having a hard time coming up with effective counter proposals.

Obviously spurred by the recent United Airline incident, and the lesser talked about woman not cleaning up her dog’s poop video.
In both cases people are disobeying rules they do not wish to follow. Also in both cases, most people after the fact are saying force/violence (or the threat of it in the dog poop video) should not have been used to resolve the issue. But what I haven’t seen is an effective counter solution when someone can’t be arsed to follow the rules. Not out of some social protest, but because they don’t won’t to be inconvenienced.

So what are some effective non-violent, non-forceful solutions when a person unreasonably refuses to leave a location they have been instructed to leave, or refuses to clean up after their dog, or any other minor law infraction, and talking/reasoning has failed?

2

Like this: Or Else!

3

It doesn’t work when you want somebody to leave an area, but if you want someone to not leave, or to do something like clean up after their dog before leaving, simply blocking their path and speaking to them firmly but calmly until they comply is pretty effective, though it takes a while.

People may get argumentative or angry, but very very few are going to continue to argue and be angry for hours on end.

This takes longer than using force, but I would argue that in most cases it’s an acceptable tradeoff. I’d much rather society pay for more police overtime to just sit there and wait for a recalcitrant jerk to comply than pay for hospital bills and excessive force lawsuits.

There are also plenty of cases where you’re better off just letting the person not comply and punishing them later. It’s pretty rare that an issue of compliance like this is really a safety issue. It’s more often an issue of asserting authority.

Since this is clearly related to the guy on the plane, an alternate cause would have been to just let the guy stay on the plane and sue him for the loss he caused the airline. The idea that the world will come to an end if you can’t force compliance right now is narrow thinking.

4

Not to focus it back just on that case, but also in that case there was the alternative of offering other passengers more to get off voluntarily, before ever having had to focus on what to do if someone involuntarily ‘re-accomodated’ refused. But it goes along with your point and general one. The solution is more likely to be one where you find an alternative to having to force a person to physically go or stay. Again not to limit it to UAL, what’s the imperative for the cops to chase down and wrestle with people* who won’t pull over for traffic stops if, assuming if, that’s all there’s evidence of and there’s technology to identify them and impose stiff monetary or other penalties?

Sometimes that might be impossible, and then it’s a different narrower discussion perhaps the OP intended, ‘OK, assuming there’s no way to solve the underlying issue but to get a particular person to go/stay, what if anything can you do beside manhandling them?’ But that is often a too narrow way of thinking, narrow thinking based on emotional reaction of some to the idea of others defying authority it seems. And as a somewhat older person this seems to me to have escalated in US society, one of its growing divisions. Some people now are so approving of people ending up with the crap beaten out of them by cops (whether from direct blows or not) because they ‘didn’t comply’, more than I remember used to be the case. And there’s a tendency to see one simple solution in all cases, ‘comply!’ with apparent resistance to thought about alternatives to avoid the situations in the first place. Not sure why this is happening, and btw I’m not putting a left v right or partisan spin on it because I think it’s deeper than that and doesn’t always line up that way.

*numerous live shots show this is typically delivered as summary corporal punishment, nobody serious IMO can maintain it’s really just ‘for the police’s safety’; it obviously goes beyond that routinely, ‘that’s what you get when you don’t comply!’.

5

How important is it to make sure that everybody always obeys every rule? To what ends ought society go to make that happen? Zero tolerance nearly always involves diminishing returns.

Have you ever raised a child? How did you get rule compliance without violence? In my experience, the best way was to create an environment of trust and fairness, such that the rules are perceived as fair, and not simply an abuse of power. Then the child, if not complying with a rule, would lose a comforting rapport and feel alienation from the rule-maker, which would be worse than the downside of obedience.

6

there is a lot of territory between forcefully removing someone from an area where you no longer wish them to be, and knocking them unconscious and dragging their limp body from the premises.

mc

7

Good Point. Make laws that are reasonable, and most reasonable People will obey them. (A law that allows an Airline to kick off a passenger just to get the seat would be unreasonable)

Additionally, you would Need a well-trained competent Police, so you aren’t afraid to call the cops - that’s what I would do here with dog poop Lady (don’t know the context). Or take a Picture for evidence. Because if she doesn’t clean up, despite being politly told to, but can be proven, a fine for “littering” (making a mess) can be levied against her. (Most cases, it can’t be figured out who was the jerk).

However, you also Need to accept that no matter how good at de-escalating and thinking-outside-the box the Police are, and how reasonable the rules, there will always be a small rest that will be unreasonable. For mental reasons (too stupid to understand, has a Problem with being told what to do) or personal reasons (knee-jerk reaction of authority and orders).

You still don’t start using violence against those, either, you always start with talking, and (here) call the cops. If the cops can’t get through with Appeals to reason or trickery, then maybe carrying them away (like sit-ins.)

What I see often is a heated Argument between two People, and the cops Show up and just seperate them: one cop talks to A, the other talks to B, both several feet apart. They take Statements, but don’t take sides. Their Job is not to figure out who is right, but to “Keep the peace”. So once everything has been documented, and both have been heard (important emotionally - partly validated), and they realize that cops won’t decide which side is right, often things cool down.

8

It depends how drunk they are.

9

Depends what kind of leverage you have over them. Losing privileges is the only non-violent endgame I can see if they are 100% committed to not following the rules. If your kid won’t do their homework take away their phone/xbox/ect. If you’re United, blacklist them from your airline (not that he would ever fly with them again). The government could take away tax breaks or numerous other things to make your life more difficult, Kinda like how sanctions work.

10

Background; I was a senior NCO in the Nav - My toolset will reflect that.

OK, so if you have someone not cooperating, you need to find your leverage. Physical force is sometimes the only answer that will serve, but you want to limit that to an absolute minimum. The primary motivators of most folks boil down to self-interest, pride, comfort, love, food.

Most cases, an appeal to a persons’ pride does the trick. HOW you make that appeal matters, though. For instance, you can approach it as making them look more mature, or more wise, or more professional. Obviously, knowing the subject and their ‘hooks’ helps. But some hooks are fairly universal: “Sir, you’re making yourself look bad” oe “Sir, this would be the generous and moral thing to do,” and so on. Or, you can reverse that: “Sir, I don’t want to embarass you.” In that latter case, you need to have the apparent ability to follow through on the threat.

You can appeal to their generosity, their dignity, their social status, discipline, or even to shame - most of those point back to pride.
Self-interest is another primary hook - couch how doing what you want them to do is in their own best interests, especially if you can make it look like it was their own idea - that hits two hooks at once - self-interest and pride. Or, if that’s not practical, show them how continuing to resist is in their detriment - fear of loss or consequences. Again, better to be able to look like you can carrry out the threat.

Even the threat of naked coercive force is an appeal to selt-interest.

Comfort (“This will feel better / If you don’t, you’re going to be miserable”) is a harder hook in most cases. Loss of privileges falls under this category - And also may touch on pride.

Love can be used, but it’s chancy - and you really need to know the subject.

Hunger is almost useless - if you’re resorting to that, you very likely will have already resorted to force, first.

11

Ultimately, any exercise of authority rests upon the right to use violence. Preventing someone from leaving is using force. So is carrying someone. Suing someone is another means of threatening to use force if the person doesn’t comply with the lawsuit. Saying that we need fewer laws or a more just society is avoiding the questions. One still has to enforce the laws that one decides to keep, and the OP has defined the situation as an unreasonable refusal to comply.

Assuming the resistance continues, the situation sooner or later comes down to a decision whether to use force or let the violation slide.

12

`So you are o.k. with forcing someone from the plane, but not with knocking them unconscious.
What if you knock them out just long enough that they can immediately escape capture and run back onto the plane and try to hide in the back?

13

I’m all for lengthy negotiations, food therapy and such, when time really isn’t a factor. In the case of airlines however, because of flightplans and connecting flights time is of the essence and long negotiations and/or starveouts just aren’t possible.

14

i am…
in this particular case there were 3 relatively large officers against one relatively small (verifiably unarmed) older man. i can’t think of any justification for blood to be spilt.

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I’m all for lengthy negotiations, food therapy and such, when time really isn’t a factor. In the case of airlines however, because of flightplans and connecting flights time is of the essence and long negotiations and/or starveouts just aren’t possible.
[/QUOTE]

so youre ok with escalated violence for the sake of expediency?

mc

15

I’m for getting that damn plane in the air on time, and I am in favor of methods that are as unharmful as possible that will get that done.

16

How to make people comply without force

Taking this as an opportunity for creative thinking, I am reminded that it is axiomatic that everyone is motivated by something, the puzzle is discovering what works best for that individual. In that spirit, brainstorming away!

How to get someone to comply without violence:
[ul]
[li]Sufficient money[/li][li]A bad smell[/li][li]Knockout gas[/li][li]Enticement from an attractive naked person[/li][li]A sufficiently loud and unpleasant noise[/li][li]Sufficiently unpleasant temperature[/li][li]Water[/li][li]Wind[/li][li]Inveiglement from a trusted other[/li][li]Threat of future punishment (grounding, exile, shunning, social stigma)[/li][li]Withholding of use or access[/li][/ul]

That’s just a few off the top of my head.

17

Fear can play a part.

A friend of mine is huge, muscular, has facial tattoos and piercings, etc. People avoid being near him in public.

A few years ago he was looking out his window and saw a leashed dog shiting in his front yard. He walked out and told the guy he was cleaning up his dog’s shit. The man agreed, apologized, etc. He searched his pockets for something to scoop up the pile, found nothing and said he’d run home and come right back.

“No, I want it taken care of now.” Some nervous muttering, but my friend just stood there glaring. The dog owner eventually knelt down and picked up the poop with his bare hand, then walked away quickly.

18

to me, thats not an issue. the list list of reasons why a “damn plane” doesnt get in the air on time is long and ridiculous, and, quite frankly should be of no concern to law enforcement.

do you believe that this was the case in this instance?

mc

19

This was exactly my thinking when I started this thread. I could not think of any other reasonable alternatives once asking proved fruitless.

[QUOTE=JTur88]
Have you ever raised a child?
[/QUOTE]

I see raising children as special case. Parents have many leverage options over a child (taking away toys, dessert, WiFi access, etc) that would not be available to cop trying to remove a stranger from a plane. (Although, I guess leaving their luggage or carry-on bags behind could have been tried)

And for those not familiar with the dog poop lady, it is Here, but NSFW language. The summary is a man catches a woman who frequently lets her dog go in front of his house and makes her pick it up by threatening the woman’s boyfriend with a beating.

20

An airline lives and dies on it’s “on-Time” rating, and people missing their connecting flight too many times is a humongous black mark, so yes-it fucking matters a lot.
Do I think that minimal harm was done to the passenger in this situation? Hell, no. He should be at the very minimum fired…but unless you’ve got records of these sorts of things happening in the past, then there is no way this airline could have predicted it would happen this time.