I was talking recently with some friends about how we remember celebs of the past. I argued, despite his current run as a commercial endorser and his 70’s coolness, that the late Steve McQueen is not universally remembered like your Bogarts and your Cary Grants. And he was quite a big star at the time. It got me thinking about how many big stars there have been over the years that have probably faded into obscurity.
The way I figure it, there are four types of Hollywood legacies for formerly great actors and actresses:
(1) Superstars- These are the Jimmy Stewarts or Charlie Chaplins who will remain legendary forever. When you hear about their deaths on TV, you stop and take a deep breath and try to imagine the world without Bob Hope. They will not soon be forgotten.
(2) **Famous But Not Quite Upper Pantheon **- Very prominent, but not quite in that A-List. Their deaths will make the nightly newscast, but they will not be on the cover of Entertainment Weekly. This may face criticism, but I put a Gregory Peck in this category (he’s borderline, Superstar).
(3) Will Be Remembered Only By the Dopers- But not the general public. They may have been the top of their game at the time, but after a while, they will fade from John Q’s memory. I associate this category with Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks. They were the biggest stars of their day, but I doubt most people would have the foggiest clue who they were. I could see most of the big stars of the day winding up in this group.
(4) Will Be Remembered Only By Eve- The saddest group (not because of EVE! ). These are the beautiful and talented people whose stars will fade so that when they die, an expert like Eve will have to create a post that tells us of their passing. We will likely have SOME recognition of the name, but we will still have to read the link she provided to recall their contribution. And you know that people we think are legitmate stars will be in this group. I could see a Tim Robbins or a Kurt Russell fading into this group.
So, what class do the stars of this generation fall into? Who will be remembered forever and who will fade into the trashbin of Hollywood History?
A few picks for each category:
Superstars-
Tom Hanks
Julia Roberts
Bill Cosby
Famous But Not Quite Upper Pantheon-
Al Pacino
Robert Deniro
Clint Eastwood
Will Be Remembered Only By the Dopers-
Morgan Freeman
Tom Cruise- Calling my shot!
Will Be Remembered Only By Eve-
Kurt Russell
Russell Crowe
Gwyneth Paltrow
Jim Carrey
Richard Gere
Good points, but I think everybody below the Superstars on your list should bump up a notch. Eastwood will easily be remembered as a superstar, and the rest are a notch better known than you give them credit for.
It is mainly the TV actors/personalities who will fill up the bottom two (Remembered only by Dopers/Eve).
Clint Eastwood will be remembered in the same vein as John Wayne.
When people think classic Western actors it’s John Wayne, and then Eastwood. Yes, John Wayne comes first, but Eastwood will ALWAYS be thought of second. The only reason he isn’t considered as big is because he’s trying to compare to someone with as much widespread notoriety as the Duke.
And on top of it Eastwood has done some pretty good/decent non-Western genre films as well (Dirty Harryesque movies for example.)
I think you are vastly underrating Eastwood. Marlon Brando for example is going to probably be remembered just as well as Cary Grant or Bogart, but even he was involved in some crappy movies near the end of his career. That’s probably why you are skewed against people who IMO are obviously legitimate Superstars and will be long remembered (Eastwood, Kirk Russell.)
Why Tim Robbins is even mentioned in the same breath as Russell I’m not sure. Russell did some huge movies and gained enormous notoriety in his day. Tim Robbins has headline nothing other than “cult classic” or plain “crappy” movies other than Shawshank Redemption and arguably Bull Durham. Robbins is an excellent actor but he hasn’t done enough work on the silver screen to really put him in virtually the same league as most of the other actors mentioned here.
People of “my” generation (I’ll say actors employed mainly from late 60s to modern day) that have already earned their spot in immortality are Eastwood, Russell, Brando.
The “greats” to me that are very good but probably won’t be remembered are Gene Hackman, Dustin Hoffman, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, and maybe even Jack Nicholson.
I think Nicholson will probably go into immortality though, you don’t win the most Academy Awards for best actor and not get remembered imo.
Sean Connery is probably also an immortal because of Bond.
Jim Carrey is harder to call because he’s still fairly young, and pretty much completely redid his career in the late 90s, so it’s hard to say what could become of him.
Actually I think this makes the discussion a little more interesting. I’ve limited my list to people who have really only gotten their careers up and running in the past twenty years.
Those guys who were part of that whole '70s Revolution, Nicholson, DeNiro, Pacino, Hoffman, those guys have their legacy pretty well set. There’s little they could do to either ruin their legacy or make us think more highly of them than we already do.
It’s more challenging to guess the staying power of the newer stars. Jim Carrey is a good example. I think if he stays on the track he’s on he will keep gaining respect and will make contributions that will be of increasing value. But that is yet to be seen. If he gets burned on a few of his higher risk projects then retreats back to the lame hack goofy faces stuff, I think he’ll end up fading.
My picks:
Superstars-
Jim Carrey
Johnny Depp
Denzel Washington
Julia Roberts
Will Smith
Madonna
Oprah
Conan O’Brien (keep in mind that he is set to take over the Tonight Show)
Famous But Not Quite Upper Pantheon-
Angelica Huston
Laurence Fishburne
Holly Hunter
Nicole Kidman
Samuel L Jackson
Catherine Zeta-Jones
Halle Berry
Will Be Remembered Only By the Dopers-
Tim Robbins
Steve Buscemi
Juliette Lewis
Jennifer Tilly
Paul Reiser
Julianne Moore
Kate Winslett
Will Be Remembered Only By Eve- (I think this is the most fun catagory!)
Brian Benben
Jenna Von Oy
Scott Bakula
David Rasche
Henry Thomas
Lili Taylor
Probably we mention our paramters are we talking about 25 years from now (like the 70’s stars)? Or are we talking about 50 or more (Bogart or even Pickford et al)? I’m splitting the difference and saying in 2040 my picks:
**Famous But Not Quite Upper Pantheon- **
Julia Roberts
Nicole Kidman
Madonna
Mike Meyers
Adam Sandler
Sean Penn()
Jude Law ()
Natalie Portman()
Ewan Macgregor()
Matt Damon()
Brad Pitt ()
George Clooney(*)
Will Be Remembered Only By the Dopers-
Tim Robbins
Susan Sarandon
Hayden Christianson
Burt Reynolds
Meryl Streep
Ben Affleck
Giovani Ribisi
Dennis & Randy Quaid
CAtherine Zeta-Jones & Michael Douglas
Antonio Banderas
Will Be Remembered Only By Eve
Elliott Gould
Sally Feild
Alan Alda
Regis, Kathy lee, Kelly
Melanie Griffith
Sigourney Weaver
The entire cast of Freinds
(*) all have shots at the superstar category from here and it just depends on the rest of thier career
You meant to put an asterix by Sandler’s name too, right? I like him but out of those names, he’s the odd pick yet you have him as a definite, not a maybe.
By Russell you mean Kurt Russell? An immortal? Are you serious? I’d call him “Remembered only by Dopers” at best. He’s been in, uh, “Swing Shift” and some action flicks and that hockey movie and, uh… a couple of Disney films when he was a kid, and, uh…
But I would like to address one of Bienville’s Superstar selections: Will Smith. I think Smith will be a “Doper” only selection. I think people who are predominantly in FX/Action pictures will fade. I think the action pics of this era, with all of their “realistic” special FX will be mocked and ridiculed by the next generation.
I think that the best way to leave a legacy is to have a body of work that holds up well over time (Mike Myers is in trouble), or become a lasting part of pop culture history (Marilyn Monroe).
A few other SUPERSTARS:
Arnold Schwarzeneggar (for other reasons)
Harrison Ford (I can’t believe I forgot Indy!)
REMEMBERED BY DOPERS
Sylvester Stallone- His decline has already began and I think Rocky will fade and Rambo is too tied to the 80’s.
Jim Carrey has resurrected physical comedy to the status it had in the earlier years of the 20th century – where a skilled actor could amuse and edify by his contortions, silly character traits, etc. He is also a highly talented serious actor, and with the ability to combine the two skills in one character, which was fairly rare in past physical comedy actors. I think he’ll be fairly well remembered, though not of superstar status unless he ends up with Casablanca/LOTR-level roles in the future.
Kurt Russell will be this generation’s Brian Keith – with a broad range of roles, many (most?) of them in forgettable movies, but with an ouevre that puts him above “forgettable” status – but, I think, without the particular charisma that elevates someone to stellar status.
I would like to know the future for Elijah Wood. Just as Kate Hepburn had only one character, but managed to convince you that that character was the matriarch in On Golden Pond, the missionary in The African Queen, and Eleanor of Aquitaine in The Lion in Winter – which is in itself a unique skill – so Elijah Wood has portrayed “the wide-eyed innocent boy who gets in over his head and perseveres to the end” in a large number of movies. He is now outgrowing that role, and if he can take roles that challenge him to effectively convince his viewers that he is another character, I foresee superstar status for him. If not, he will turn into another Judy Garland/Mickey Rooney, trading on his child/teen star fame in adult life.
Though I am tickled to be a “category” (what, no one else remembers Lyda Roberti, Vernon Castle or Helen Kane?!).
But I do want to add that “you never can tell.” In 1914, Florence La Badie was a star . . . well, not as big as Mary Pickford, but in the Top Ten in the fan magazines’ lists. Certainly as big in her day as, say, Gwyneth Paltrow or Angelina Jolie today. And no one remembers her (except the Dopers who were with me on the tour where we found her unmarked grave).
Then there’s Anna Held, and not just because I’m plugging my book, but because 100 years ago, she was the biggest musical-comedy star on Broadway (before there was a “Hollywood”). She was the Barbra Streisand, the Ethel Merman of her day, and if you told anyone that in 100 years she’d be forgotten, their corset stays would have popped.
I don’t think it’s always that easy to predict the longevity of today’s stars. Who, in the 50s, would have guessed that James Dean would still be remembered after all these years? Or Marilyn Monroe, for that matter – no one really took her seriously during her life, exept as a sex symbol. It wasn’t until long after her death that she got the recognition she deserved.
On the other hand, there are so many “superstars” of the past whose stardom has been eroding over the years. How many people under a certain age have every heard of Noel Coward or Helen Hayes or Lillian Gish? (I hope I’m wrong about this)
I didn’t asterix him because I can only see me[I] over-estimating * him at this point – I say here, a serene a$$ of a man on X-mas 2004 saying these famous last words with great and fatal certainty: ‘There is no freakin’ way Sandler could ever be a “superstar” & he may actually very well be remembered by Dopers only’
Which is exactly the opposite of what I am saying about the others (but since I am jawbonin’ I think Meyers and Madonna are more likely to slide than grow too)
Immortality comes to those that rise above their persona and become icons. I wouldn’t call Elvis an actor, though he starred in all those crappy movies, but an icon he is.
Another thing - is the icon the actor or a special character? Bogey made a shitload of films, but he’d three characters that have become iconographs (in descending order): Casablanca, Sam Spade and African Queen.
So maybe Ahnold won’t be immortal, but his terminator persona is definitely up there already. The same goes for Indy, Rocky and a bunch of other characters. 50 years from know, every 6 year old kid will know who Luke Skywalker is, very few of any age will remember Mark Hamill.
Of the current crop, born from 60 and onwards, I think the following have a shot at icon-status, as actors - not characters:
Brad Pitt
Leo Di Caprio
Tom Cruise
Jennifer Lopez
Dakota Fanning (wild card)
I think six is too young, but I do think well-read, well-informed teenagers (film fans, etc.) fifty years from now will be very aware of who Luke Skywalker is, much the same way I was aware when I was, say sixteen in 1980, of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers (Buster Crabbe versions).
Of course some are remembered for things other than the actual films they made – there’s scandal, early death and hmmmmmm I think that Ronald Reagan guy will be remembered for quite a while!
). These are the beautiful and talented people whose stars will fade so that when they die, an expert like Eve will have to create a post that tells us of their passing. We will likely have SOME recognition of the name, but we will still have to read the link she provided to recall their contribution. And you know that people we think are legitmate stars will be in this group. I could see a Tim Robbins or a Kurt Russell fading into this group.