How will baseball fans respond to Barry Bonds setting the HR record?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Short answer to the OP’s question: how will fans react? I can only tell you the proper reaction: ignore him. When he’s close to passing Henry Aaron, the Commissioner should find some other pressing business to attend to, rather than attending Bonds’ games. Henry Aaron himself should develop a convenient illness that prevents him from travelling.

Let Bonds have his tainted record. No asterisk, no nonsense. Just don’t pay him any mind.

Even though Barry seems to have his defenders, here and elsewhere, it becomes increasingly clear that NOBODY believes him. NOBODY. That becomes obvious after a brief talk/argument with a Bonds fan.

Because even Bonds’ defenders can’t maintain the “He’s innocent” or “There’s no proof he took steroids” argument for more than 10 seconds. If they really believed he was innocent, that’s the argument they’d stick to. But within 10 seconds, they’ll change the subject to, “Well, what about McGwire and Sosa,” or “Well, EVERYBODY took them,” or “What about Gaylord Perry,” or “Well, Babe Ruth drank too muchg and Ty Cobb was a racist.”

Get the idea? People who really believed Bonds was innocent wouldn’t resort to these irrelevant (though sometimes valid) side arguments so quickly.

So, Barry Bonds should be mnighty proud, knowing that even his most ardent defenders know he’s a cheating scumbag- they just think it’s OKAY to be a cheating scumbag, as long as he’s hitting homers.

42

When he passes Ruth, I’ll probably give the one finger salute with both hands to the television replay. I just hope it happens on the road so he can get booed. I’d like to see baseball maintain two sets of records: one for players before and after the steroid era and one for players during the steroid era.

43

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
When he passes Ruth, I’ll probably give the one finger salute with both hands to the television replay. I just hope it happens on the road so he can get booed. I’d like to see baseball maintain two sets of records: one for players before and after the steroid era and one for players during the steroid era.
[/QUOTE]

Once you did that you need to consider the Pre-Jackie Era vs the post Jackie era. The Pre-Expansion of the leagues and schedules and the post expansion. The Pre-professional Closer and the Post professional Closer.
That is one very slippery slope you are wishing for.
Do you think A-Rod is juiced? I don’t. How about Pujols? I have no idea.

Jim

44

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Baseball is the only major pro sport to have a person die on the field.
[/quote]
That will come as news to the late Chuck Hughes. What does that have to do with cheating, anyway?

I don’t know, golf and auto racing sure have a lot of arguments about equipment. It’s true that football, hockey, and basketball all have standard field sizes, and baseball doesn’t, but I don’t know how that qualifies as “messing with the outcome”. Both teams play on the same field.

45

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
That will come as news to the late Chuck Hughes. What does that have to do with cheating, anyway?I don’t know, golf and auto racing sure have a lot of arguments about equipment. It’s true that football, hockey, and basketball all have standard field sizes, and baseball doesn’t, but I don’t know how that qualifies as “messing with the outcome”. Both teams play on the same field.
[/QUOTE]

Homefield advantage in terms of customizing the field to fit your team.
If you have a pitching & speed team, you can push the wall out or up a little and there are tricks to grading the field that can aid the hit & run and bunting.
More common, “now that we have sluggers, we’ll move the fences in.” (Cards are a great example of this)
In Domes you can even play with the air system to assist or help prevent home runs.

Now in Football, it is considered a valuable advantage for a Northern Team to have an open windy stadium when playing Dome/Southern teams. Especially if you were Chicago or Giants in the 80’s with grind it out Defenses and running games. So Football can customize the team to the stadium also.

Jim

46

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Once you did that you need to consider the Pre-Jackie Era vs the post Jackie era. The Pre-Expansion of the leagues and schedules and the post expansion. The Pre-professional Closer and the Post professional Closer.
That is one very slippery slope you are wishing for.
Do you think A-Rod is juiced? I don’t. How about Pujols? I have no idea.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

Excellent points. Perhaps I would single out Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire and merely omit their records.

47

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
When he passes Ruth, I’ll probably give the one finger salute with both hands to the television replay. I just hope it happens on the road so he can get booed. I’d like to see baseball maintain two sets of records: one for players before and after the steroid era and one for players during the steroid era.
[/QUOTE]

I had a beautiful little daydream at the baseball game I was at last night. I fantasized that I was in the bleachers at the away game when Bonds hit the record-breaking homer. It comes right into my glove. I hold it up, turn to the TV cameras, yell “F*ck you, you cheating scumbag!” and throw the ball back on the field with contempt in every bit of my being. Then I get interviewed by every magazine and TV station in the country, where I can bad-mouth Bonds constantly. My actions would get 5 times the airplay that his “achievement” did.

A fellow can dream… :smiley:

48

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
That will come as news to the late Chuck Hughes. What does that have to do with cheating, anyway?
[/quote]

Steroids are supposed to be this big stain on the game, whereas I see it as just another thing, and a small one at that. I stand corrected about the death of Chuck Hughes, but what I meant was that Ray Chapman died as a direct result of an inflicted injury. He didn’t just keel over and die, he was plugged with the ball.

Baseballs can be construted in a manner that makes them more “lively” (aka “juiced”). The height of the mound can be changed in every park, affecting pitchers. Protective equipment allowed players to dig in against the pitcher, and that was taken away to restore the competitive balance. Gloves are much bigger than they once were, allowing for better defense. The parks themselves are designed for competitive advantage, and the groundskeepers can subtly cheat (ever heard of “Ashburn’s Ridge” or the story of the Astrodome air conditioning?).

Baseball, more than any other sport, lends itself to cheating. At least in NASCAR they check the car before and after the race. In baseball you’re only checked if someone catches you. So, of course, everybody and their sister cheats. Hell, most of the people in the Hall of Fame cheated in some way or another, and some more obviously than others.

49

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Hell, most of the people in the Hall of Fame cheated in some way or another, and some more obviously than others.
[/QUOTE]

I believe I’m going to require a few cites for that staement, if you don’t mind?

50

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
**Concerning Gaylord Perry and the Doctoring of baseballs: **
Most baseballs fans consider the ability to Hide the fact you can Doctor a baseball to be a skill. It is cheating, but cheating within the spirit of the game.

[/QUOTE]

I think this is exactly the answer to my question. Doctoring the baseball just draws a wink and a smile – it’s homegrown backyard physics at work. Steroids are Frankenstein laboratory science, and Drugs are Bad, mmkay?

The second part of the answer: fans care about homeruns a LOT more than they care about pitching records. And Perry didn’t set any pitching records, anyway; and the record for wins in a career (511, Cy Young) will literally, definitely, positively, never be broken.

51

[QUOTE=jsc1953]
I think this is exactly the answer to my question. Doctoring the baseball just draws a wink and a smile – it’s homegrown backyard physics at work. Steroids are Frankenstein laboratory science, and Drugs are Bad, mmkay?

The second part of the answer: fans care about homeruns a LOT more than they care about pitching records. And Perry didn’t set any pitching records, anyway; and the record for wins in a career (511, Cy Young) will literally, definitely, positively, never be broken.
[/QUOTE]

Not even all drugs, Bennies & Caffeine are pretty much accepted as part of the game and lets face it, few people worry about the recreational Drinking or pot smoking of players.
Steroids are looked at as a mad scientist brew indeed. Look at Bonds age 30 vs. age 39 and it is hard to blame people.

[QUOTE=silenus]
I had a beautiful little daydream at the baseball game I was at last night. I fantasized that I was in the bleachers at the away game when Bonds hit the record-breaking homer. It comes right into my glove. I hold it up, turn to the TV cameras, yell “F*ck you, you cheating scumbag!” and throw the ball back on the field with contempt in every bit of my being. Then I get interviewed by every magazine and TV station in the country, where I can bad-mouth Bonds constantly. My actions would get 5 times the airplay that his “achievement” did.

A fellow can dream…
[/QUOTE]

That is a very good dream, I hope you get to achieve your dream. Just watch out the crazed fan that will assault you to get the cursed ball.

Airman Doors, USAF I just want to second **silenus’s ** asking you to backup or recant your “Hell, most of the people in the Hall of Fame cheated in some way or another, and some more obviously than others.”

BobLibDem Good start with Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire. Don’t leave Palmiero, Giambi & Sheffield off your list. They might all be in the 500 club someday. Mentally I already discount these 6 and a few more like Ortiz.

Jim

52

By the way…I think the question in the OP is moot; I don’t think Barry will pass Aaron. He wants to pass Ruth in the worst way, but I think he respects Aaron more and would be happy to be #2 to him. Barry will end this year with 25-30 HR’s, leaving him about 10-15 short. His body is breaking down badly already, and when next February rolls around it’ll be even worse. He’ll retire.

53

The case has been made by people like Bill James, among others, that the game was hopelessly corrupt in the early years. No less an authority than Hal Chase, the ultimate game thrower, said that everybody was on the take, he was just the one that got caught. Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were both implicated in throwing games, for Pete’s sake. Everybody who played back then is therefore suspect. Then you have other stories of players impeding progress on the basepaths (Frankie Frisch has been accused of this, among others), gambling episodes (Leo Durocher was suspended for a year in 1947 for this, although it was never proven that he bet on baseball), spitballs (Whitey Ford was a big name as this goes), and you come to the understanding that back then that was the way the game was played. It was dirty, everybody was playing some sort of angle, but only a select few got caught.

The idyllic game of summer is a myth.

54

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
The case has been made by people like Bill James, among others, that the game was hopelessly corrupt in the early years. No less an authority than Hal Chase, the ultimate game thrower, said that everybody was on the take, he was just the one that got caught. Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were both implicated in throwing games, for Pete’s sake. Everybody who played back then is therefore suspect. Then you have other stories of players impeding progress on the basepaths (Frankie Frisch has been accused of this, among others), gambling episodes (Leo Durocher was suspended for a year in 1947 for this, although it was never proven that he bet on baseball), spitballs (Whitey Ford was a big name as this goes), and you come to the understanding that back then that was the way the game was played. It was dirty, everybody was playing some sort of angle, but only a select few got caught.

The idyllic game of summer is a myth.
[/QUOTE]

I am trying to reconcile that with all the HOF’ers that started after 1922. I have serious doubts than many of them were involved in throwing games/gambling on games.
Can you elaborate on the impeding progress on the base paths? I don’t understand how this is cheating.

I agree that all dead ball era players have to be suspect as all of todays players get lumped into the steroid era.
I think from 1922 (let’s say Lou Gehrig) through 1985 (Ozzie Smith?) the players were probably never guilty of anything worse than stealing signs (We know about those 1950’s Giants) & doctoring baseballs. (Whitey Ford along with Perry and many others).
Maybe I am deceiving myself, but I think this makes most HOF’ers clean.

Jim

55

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Can you elaborate on the impeding progress on the base paths? I don’t understand how this is cheating.
[/QUOTE]

As people ran by the second baseman/shortstop would grab their belt, try to trip them, step in the way, anything to keep them from getting that extra base. As I understand it it was a fairly common occurrence. Remember, they only had one umpire at one time, and he couldn’t see everything. What he didn’t see was people getting away with murder.

56

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I stand corrected about the death of Chuck Hughes, but what I meant was that Ray Chapman died as a direct result of an inflicted injury. He didn’t just keel over and die, he was plugged with the ball.
[/QUOTE]

Look, it’s clear from your posts that you are a huge fan, knowledgeable historian and defender of the great game. So, if you claim that it must be a Professional Major Sports Team Death Sustained While Playing On A Diamond-Shaped Field, then sure. You might be on solid ground. If, as you say, Chuck Hughes’ death is not a result of being struck by the device used to play the game.

Are we to believe that the death of George Boiardi, lacrosse player from Cornell also doesn’t count as a death?

People die playing sports. Not just in baseball. Now, this young man died because he was struck in the chest with a lacross ball. It doesn’t count as a death because… it was an NCAA sanctioned match and not a pro sports team?

Harsh.

Then, of course, there are the many certifiable and easily documented deaths of race car drivers who died in crashes while racing in a sanctioned race. Pro auto racing is not a pro sport? Their cars are the devices they use to participate in their sports. They die in a crash, then they died by being involved in a violent encounter with the device used to play their sport.

Anyone thinking that pro auto racing is not a pro sport, but instead an amateur hobby needs to take a peek at the purses for the last year’s NASCAR as well as Formula 1 races. :slight_smile: ( Lest you call bullshit, here are statistics on recent deaths. Not all of them. Just the recent ones.

Baseball is not the only sport, professional or amateur, where a player has died because they have come in contact with the device used to play the sport. Plain and simple.

Cartooniverse

57

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Maybe by “illegal substance,” he meant ‘hookers?’
[/QUOTE]

In case you haven’t noticed, one of the big objections to steroids is that they’re illegal.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
I didn’t know injury-fixing surgery was illegal either.
[/QUOTE]

Who said it was? And not all surgery is used to fix injuries. Some surgery enhances performance. That’s OK. While (alleged) performance enhancing steroids are EVIL! Athletes are always looking for enhancement. Steroids seems to be the only one that has people screaming for blood.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
**Concerning Gaylord Perry and the Doctoring of baseballs: **
Most baseballs fans consider the ability to Hide the fact you can Doctor a baseball to be a skill. It is cheating, but cheating within the spirit of the game.
Caulking bats has never been treated as a high crime by most fans or the league. If you get caught, you pay the price (a relatively small price).

Many retired players claim that MLB cannot maintain a 162 game schedule without the use of Bennies. I don’t think this is true, but they allow players to play the game at a consistent level as opposed to a Suped up level and have thus been largely glossed over since at least the 50’s.
[/QUOTE]

Rationalize much? Is cheating ever “within the spirit of the game”?

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
The use of Alcohol during prohibition being compared to steroids is a joke I hope. This is not the same thing as Steroid or even Bennie use.

Yookeroo: Can you possibly cite the “Ruth once injected himself extract from a sheep’s testes in order to gain an edge”? This is quite a claim if just rumor.
[/QUOTE]

I read it here. But why is it “quite a claim”? Athletes have always looked for ways to get an edge and have been willing to go to great lengths to do it.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
BTW: Besides juice the other huge advantage players have today that they did not have in the past is Custom Corrective Eye surgery. This is far more important change than most people seem to realize. One of the great attributes Ted Williams possessed was better than 20/20 vision. Now many players have had successful surgery to better than 20/20 vision. I would love to know how many and see a chart of Batting Average and OBA before and after. This is legal and approved, but a huge difference when comparing players of different eras.

[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t be surpised if this is a bigger advantage than steroids. But using surgery to improve yourself is OK. Using vitamins is OK. Using weight training is OK. Using a specialized diet is OK. Using an illegal pitch is OK. Corked bat? About a week of talk show/sportwriter whining. then it’s forgotten. Using steroids? Well that’s different. :rolleyes:

It doesn’t help that Bonds is particularly unlkeable. I wonder if we’d see this hysteria if it turned out Ripkin was using (considering his record of staying healthy, it wouldn’t be surprising if that turned out to be the case)?

58

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
It doesn’t help that Bonds is particularly unlkeable. I wonder if we’d see this hysteria if it turned out Ripkin was using (considering his record of staying healthy, it wouldn’t be surprising if that turned out to be the case)?
[/QUOTE]

We pretty much did see this with McGwire. At the time, 61 and 755 were probably the most hallowed records in all of American sports. McGwire was obviously juiced and obliterated that record, and was hailed as some great saviour of baseball.

Bonds, obviously juiced, is doing the same thing and everyone hates him. Why the double standard? Because Barry’s an asshole? Because hallowed-record-breaking is old hat now? Because he’s black (I doubt this is a reason in present company, but it’s out there somewhere)?

Sorry. I’m not proud when my team scores, but I don’t wanna hear it from those who cheered McGwire, nor those who boo him at the park then leave after his last at-bat in the top of the eighth of a one-run game.

59

“…I’m not proud that he did steroids,” that is.

60

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
Rationalize much? Is cheating ever “within the spirit of the game”?
[/QUOTE]

That some pitchers & catchers cheat has always been accepted with a sly nod. The Art is to not get caught. Not rationalization, but a basic baseball truth.

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
I read it here. But why is it “quite a claim”? Athletes have always looked for ways to get an edge and have been willing to go to great lengths to do it.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting, I would like to see their sources but Ok.

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]

I wouldn’t be surpised if this is a bigger advantage than steroids. But using surgery to improve yourself is OK. Using vitamins is OK. Using weight training is OK. Using a specialized diet is OK. Using an illegal pitch is OK. Corked bat? About a week of talk show/sportwriter whining. then it’s forgotten. Using steroids? Well that’s different. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

I mentioned it because I think it has changed the game as much as The Closer, The DH, The Extra teams, Steroids and Integration. Laser Corrective surgery is a huge advantage for todays batters over players of the past.
By some simple calculations, there has been around 164,316 games from 1901 through 2005 plus post season games and 1876 to 1900 games. Call it 175,000 games. There has been one death. This is actually amazing. There have been more Major League Baseball games played than all of Hockey, Basketball & Football together. I we very conservatively consider that a game averages 220 pitches we can say that Chapman’s death was a 1 out of 38,500,000 chance. Just thought I would crank out some numbers.

Jim


Range	Yrs	Teams	Games	Tot Games	
1901	60	16	154	73,920	16
1961	1	18	162	1,458	Ana & Tex
1962	7	20	162	11,340	NYM & Hou
1969	8	24	162	15,552	KC Mil SD Mon 
1977	16	26	162	33,696	Tor & Sea
1993	5	28	162	11,340	Col & Fla
1998	7	30	162	17,010	Tam & Arz
2005				164,316