How would you react to a 9/11 type attack on Montreal?

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@Attack from the 3rd dimension

The US has a self-imposed news blackout, and doesn’t know what the world at large thinks, except dopers and people who listen to NPR.

It’s interesting that you include Dopers (I assume you mean people on this message board, not potheads ) as exceptions to the “rule” that Americans do not look beyond their borders. It makes me wonder if it’s possible that you disregard Americans who don’t fit the stereotype as “exceptions”, while not noticing the Canadians who, in fact, don’t know much about the outside world. Of course, you’ve lived in the country many years while I’ve only visited a few times, but you wouldn’t be the only politically left-wing American who left the country for Canada and thinks his new country is so much better, despite the fact it’s not all that different.

So Americans think they’re great guys, and thinks that the rest of the world think the same

I think Americans are quite aware that in many countries they are not necessarily seen as the good guys.

Socialized medicine, gun control, cooperation in place of individualism, federalism, inclusiveness, Gay marriage, seal clubbing, cultural integration without a melting pot and Tim Horton’s were the answers on my citizenship exam.

The US has federalism, cooperation (maybe more on the private than governmental level, but it’s still there), same-sex marriage (in Massachusetts at least, plus civil unions in a few other states), cultural integration without a melting pot (in many places, blacks and Hispanics, while being part of the American nation, have a rather distinct culture) and Tim Horton’s (in some states, but how in hell is this a cultural value anyway?) There is even gun control in some states, but of course the US constitutionally protects the right to privately own firearms. I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “inclusiveness”, and I have no idea what “seal clubbing” is supposed to refer to. (The seal hunt in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?)

My point is that, yes, the US and Canada do differ somewhat in terms of culture, but given the wide cultural variety in both countries, you will find “American” values to be quite common in Canada, and “Canadian” values to be quite common in the US as well. Even in your example of “socialized medicine”, I’m sure you know that there is a movement to reform the American healthcare system, and there is a movement to increase the private contribution to the Canadian healthcare system. While the US may have more of a gun culture than Canada, plenty of Canadians do love their guns and many Americans see no need for these things and would like to see them more regulated. I, personally, would like to see Canada move a bit toward integrating immigrants (i.e. “melting pot”) rather than toward multiculturalism at any cost.

But hell, I’ve only been out west for a week, so I may get yet be listing bike lanes and coffee shops as core values.

Actually, that’s an interesting point: in some places in Canada, ensuring that roads be accessible for human-powered vehicles may be considered extremely important (and I would agree). But then you have the now deceased mayor of Quebec City Andrée Boucher who thought that bikes were only little toys for kids and that real adult people took their cars to get to work. (Yes, she really pissed me off when she basically said this.) I think you’d find it really hard to describe “common Canadian values”.

Matt_mcl Made the point I was trying to make in a much better way.

What matt said is that Canada is a different country from the US and that hearing people say that Canadian provinces are basically more states makes him fear that Canada’s sovereignty won’t be respected. I don’t exactly share his fear, though I believe I know where he’s coming from, but I think what you’re saying is a bit different.

[Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension]

@Hypnagogic Jerk

It’s interesting that you include Dopers (I assume you mean people on this message board, not potheads ) as exceptions to the “rule” that Americans do not look beyond their borders.

Probably this was self defense more than anything. I didn’t want 90 replies from well read politically aware American dopers pointing out that they are well read politically aware American dopers.

@Hypnagogic Jerk

You wouldn’t be the only politically left-wing American who left the country for Canada and thinks his new country is so much better, despite the fact it’s not all that different.

I left the US for work. I got a job in Canada. I stayed for personal reasons. No politics involved. I did not say that Canada is better, so let’s not pretend I did. The observations about differences in political awareness are my own, and they are exactly that, observations. When I live in the US, people talk about US politics. When I live in Canada, people talk about Canadian and US politics, with a smattering of European politics, at least on the east coast.

@Hypnagogic Jerk

I think Americans are quite aware that in many countries they are not necessarily seen as the good guys.

Maybe. You’re in Quebec, not in Dallas. Americans in Quebec may not be a valid sample either.

@Hypnagogic Jerk

The US has federalism, cooperation (maybe more on the private than governmental level, but it’s still there), same-sex marriage (in Massachusetts at least, plus civil unions in a few other states), cultural integration without a melting pot (in many places, blacks and Hispanics, while being part of the American nation, have a rather distinct culture) and Tim Horton’s (in some states, but how in hell is this a cultural value anyway?) There is even gun control in some states, but of course the US constitutionally protects the right to privately own firearms. I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “inclusiveness”, and I have no idea what “seal clubbing” is supposed to refer to. (The seal hunt in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?)

Newfoundlanders clubbing seals. The list is a joke, in response to your request that I define Canadian values. This list was not on my citizenship exam either - Next time I will include a smiley face, la -

@Hypnagogic Jerk

My point is that, yes, the US and Canada do differ somewhat in terms of culture, but given the wide cultural variety in both countries, you will find “American” values to be quite common in Canada, and “Canadian” values to be quite common in the US as well.

I realize this. My point, such as it is, is that there are differences, and that due to the massive size and relative insularity and myopia of the US, many or most Americans are unaware of them, and use a convenient shorthand of ‘they just like us’. Yes, there are many overlaps. The US military has some of the finest socialized medicine in the world. However, lacking the sociological equivalent of a Student t-test, I think we’ve said all we need to. As much as I’ve enjoyed it, we’ve hijacked this thread, and should either start a new one, or go back to the topic at hand.

So…if terrorists attacked Montreal, I guess, based on my comments to date, that I would start a long pointless discussion about Canadian values, and ask the US for help.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

Fair enough. I enjoy discussing “Canadian values”, because I honestly haven’t yet been able to figure out what they might be. All the suggestions I’ve heard weren’t satisfying to me. And when you have the Governor General herself blaming Quebecers for not knowing enough about the rest of Canada, and not sharing in Canada’s values enough, I wonder: what is it that they want us to know and share? So I ask.

Let’s not hijack the thread further.

[yojimbo]

@mnemosyne

Even after the actual events of 9/11, countries such as the UK considered it an attack on their soil, the fact is they did not act without consultation and agreement with the USA (beyond internal response to protect their own citizens). The USA was attacked - the USA directed the response.

It’s worthwhile remembering that for several countries, including the UK, 9/11 was the worst single terrorist attack on their citizens they’ve ever experienced.

[Grey]

@Hypnagogic Jerk

Fair enough. I enjoy discussing “Canadian values”, because I honestly haven’t yet been able to figure out what they might be. All the suggestions I’ve heard weren’t satisfying to me. And when you have the Governor General herself blaming Quebecers for not knowing enough about the rest of Canada, and not sharing in Canada’s values enough, I wonder: what is it that they want us to know and share? So I ask.

Let’s not hijack the thread further.

No, especially since the GG is a Quebecer herself.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

Of course, and she’s only an example.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Hypnagogic Jerk

<snip>
I think Americans are quite aware that in many countries they are not necessarily seen as the good guys.<snip>

My husband and I were fairly viciously attacked on a different message board by pointing out some seemingly obvious truths about the US and its citizens with regard to 9/11 and its causes - at this point, I don’t think Americans are aware of much about how the rest of the world views them, and they don’t want to be. Dopers excepted, of course (and I do mean that - you guys can have a civil debate about a touchy subject).

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@featherlou

My husband and I were fairly viciously attacked on a different message board by pointing out some seemingly obvious truths about the US and its citizens with regard to 9/11 and its causes

Well, that may depend on the way you were pointing out these truths. There’s a reason why it was the US that was attacked, and it is that they’re one of the countries with the most involved foreign policy, especially in the Middle East. If the US had been more isolationist, it wouldn’t have been attacked. I don’t think many people will disagree with this (aside from “they hate us for our freedom” and similar ideas).

This doesn’t add up to saying that the US was “responsible” for the attack. Al-Qaida was. What it means is that conflicts always have at least two sides. Groups don’t attack each other for the fun of it, they do it for a reason, and often we can understand why they did it, without blaming the victim or denying the attacker’s responsibility.

I’m sure you weren’t blaming the US’s policies for 9/11 and were only trying to point out that it didn’t happen in a vacuum. You were misinterpreted, probably because to many Americans, the attacks are still hurtful and terrifying and the suggestion that American policies were the motivation for them tends to be interpreted as meaning that American policies were responsible for them. When you’ve been hurt so much, taking the time to think that maybe it can be explained (not even excused) by your own actions is hard.

[RickJay]

@featherlou

My husband and I were fairly viciously attacked on a different message board by pointing out some seemingly obvious truths about the US and its citizens with regard to 9/11 and its causes…

Exactly what were these alleged truths, and how exactly did you elect to point them out, and when was this?

It’s possible to be insensitive and jerkish even when speaking what you think to be the truth. Perhaps you were not attacked so much for the content as the manner of delivery.

[mnemosyne]

@yojimbo

It’s worthwhile remembering that for several countries, including the UK, 9/11 was the worst single terrorist attack on their citizens they’ve ever experienced.

I acknowledge that, but I don’t think it changes my point. An attack on Montreal on the scale of 9/11 (let’s assume a prominent location, approx. 3000 dead and many more injured) would likely affect many immigrants or people descended from other countries, and so the same statement would apply. Not to mention the fact that Canada is a Commonwealth country with (at least theoretically) even stronger ties to the UK than the US has, which seems to be the country we keep bringing into this.

So I still think that, if this hypothetical attack were to happen, as much as it would be an attack on citizens of other countries, it would be an attack on Canadian soil and so Canada should be the first country to decide on an action, though that action would most likely involve assistance from other countries. If Canada were to say “No, we aren’t striking back”, then others could unilaterally take action if they wanted to, but I don’t think most Canadians would like it if the other countries acted before Canada had a chance to decide anything (though of course, there is nothing we could do to stop them other than diplomatically protest!)

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Hypnagogic Jerk

<snip>
I’m sure you weren’t blaming the US’s policies for 9/11 and were only trying to point out that it didn’t happen in a vacuum. You were misinterpreted, probably because to many Americans, the attacks are still hurtful and terrifying and the suggestion that American policies were the motivation for them tends to be interpreted as meaning that American policies were responsible for them. When you’ve been hurt so much, taking the time to think that maybe it can be explained (not even excused) by your own actions is hard.

That’s pretty much how it happened; we were quite polite and gentle in saying this, with many statements of how we sympathize with the US and felt very badly that it happened, but anything short of, “Oh, you poor babies, you were totally innocent in every way, for all time” was considered America hating.