How would you respond to the deferential wife scenario?

Great Debates
102

Riiiiiight… because all women everywhere are exactly the same, with no variation whatsoever. :roll_eyes:

Or maybe you just make pathological anything that doesn’t conform to what you think is normal, even if that makes the majority “abnormal”. Again, :roll_eyes:

No, it is NOT “normal” or “natural” for any human to be that subservient to another human being. There have been a lot of people conditioned to be that subservient, but it’s no more “natural” than the look of, say, a Boston terrier. The dog looks that way because someone went to the effort of breeding a dog that looks like that. There are women that subservient because someone went to the effort of conditioning her to put her master husband’s whims and desires above her own. Indeed, to remove any desires of her own entirely.

The only thing you got right, IMHO, is that when two people are equally deeply in love they consider each other’s needs and support each other’s interests. I happened to have had such a marriage. I supported my late spouse’s interest in creating and running his own business (actually, four of them in his lifetime), being a professional musician, and his collections. He supported my interest in being an artist (indeed, at one point he was able to enlist my talents for one of his businesses), achieving a pilot’s license, and my too many hobbies. But, here’s the important point: neither of us had to be subservient or deferential towards the other. Sure, on this year I was the chief breadwinner, some other year he was. Sometimes I had to yield, sometimes he did, but it was a partnership, not a master/servant relationship. And it did not involve a phony “natural” state for either one of us.

The “deferential” wife thing is also seen in the tradwife “movement”, and it always boils down to the woman putting her life on hold for other people with the nebulous promise of a reward down the line… which often doesn’t come. Because there will always be a family member that’s needy, which she is then told it is “natural” for her to take care of and to put her needs on the back burner once again.

103

There’s a phenomenal children’s book by Avi, The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle, that I think about a lot. An upper-class girl ends up on a ship where she puts on men’s clothing and joins the crew. The tyrannical captain trumps up a murder charge against her and holds a shipboard trial, where he mostly accuses her of being “unnatural.”

Her defense is that her behavior is “unusual, not unnatural,” and I freaking love that phrase, and think you should consider adding it to your lexicon.

104

We actually don’t have to imagine what this looks like. A few decades ago in the US, many women lived like this, and nowadays some are trying to resurrect it via the tradwife (traditional wife) phenomenon (which to me has the shape of a voluntary kind of submissive roleplay).

If it affected nobody but the participating couple, I’d say fine. But a part of this particular roleplay seems to be a desire to normalize it and advocate it for others. So it suggests to men that this is an ideal to expect from women, and it suggests to women that this is ideal behavior for them. That’s kind of problematic, but people have the right to set a bad example and have bad expectations.

If that’s as far as it went, it wouldn’t bother me. But much like religion and other aspects of conservatism, it seems like advocating for it and pressuring others to take part in the lifestyle is a big part of what makes the whole thing fun for them, and they struggle to leave others out of it. It’s not enough for 2 people to participate, everybody needs to participate. Whatever your sex kink is, fine, do what you want, but you shouldn’t pressure other people to get involved.

105

Very well put. This describes my relationship between me and my wife, and this is the beauty of marriage, friendship, and love, because any circumstances that would be demeaning to my partner would be demeaning to me.

106

(I haven’t read the entire thread, so sorry if someone brought that up before.)

What seems to me the more important question is - what kind of person would WANT someone like that as a spouse?
I can agree that if a person does that of their own free will (however you determine that), then it’s OK.

But on the literal other side - who wants to be with someone like that? I think that’s a more frightening thought.
Having their unwavering support, because they believe in ME? Sure. But existing only to serve me, perhaps even regardless of who I am? That’s a job for a machine, not a person.
(Note: if they thought they’d exist only to serve me because of who I am, then they clearly wouldn’t understand who I am.)

107

I grew up conservative LDS, but not a fundamentalist, although I have polygamist ancestors.

There’s a world of difference between someone who grows up in a more mainstream environment and then decides to embrace a lifestyle like that and someone who grows up within a society where (principally) girls and women are trained to be submissive.

108

This question kinda reminds me of the part of Game of Thrones where Dany has to let slaves sell themselves back to their old masters (after violently freeing them when she first invaded), because they have nowhere else to go, no food, no homes, etc. And I wanted to yell at the screen, like, “just tell them to work for a wage!”.

In other words, the problem isn’t the “freely choosing to become another’s servant” part, the problem is that you then have no freedom to reconsider that decision later. But we need to maintain the infrastructure, education, mass media, etc. to allow people to change their minds and seek a new life away from their former “masters”, whenever they see fit.

If women choose to be stay at home moms and obey their husbands, more power to them. What was wrong in the past was all the legal, systemic, social mechanisms and pressures that prevented them from changing their minds. Women who wanted to be free of their abusive, drunk, incompetent, overbearing husbands couldn’t. That’s the problem. Not the initial decision, presumably made with optimism, to focus on the household and the children while you let the man worry about bills and the rat race. (Many times in my adult life I’ve dreamed of being a stay at home dad myself, I understand the appeal.)

So, ultimately, the problem with “voluntary subservience” isn’t the subservience itself (and let’s face it, we all submit to someone, whether our boss, our spouse, our political leaders, etc.), it’s the lack of foundational freedom that goes along with it. Even if you voluntarily decided to give up that freedom for the meantime, for whatever reasons, it must be easily available to achieve again whenever you want it. That’s my standard of morality on the topic.

And of course, it goes without saying that any force or manipulation on the husband’s part, to prevent the now freedom-seeking wife from undoing her decision to be submissive, must be heavily discouraged and banned. So, no physical abuse, obviously, but also no hiding or withholding money, preventing her from communicating with family or friends or law enforcement, etc. No preventing her from having her own bank account or job if she chooses, etc.

When she decides to stop obeying, that’s when her obedience ends. Period. Find another submissive wife at that point, if you must.

109

My husband was a stray at home Dad for a few years. I’ve never had it better. Coming home to a warm meal, well-cared for kids… Having the bills paid and the car serviced while i was off at the office earning the bacon. It was awesome. I suspect that’s way more fun than being the stay at home spouse. Although the only time i tried that was post-partum, with a very demanding baby, and not a lot of energy.

110

I know that it’s a typo … but … you knew what went on while you went to work and never had it better? :grin:

111

:laughing:

Discourse

112

I know from my experience being between jobs, being a SAHD dad is a lot more fun than having to go to work. Except the not making any money and not having a career part.

113

I suspect i enjoy my work more than you enjoy yours. I remember the first day back in the office after maternity leave. I set at my desk nursing a cup of coffee, instead of a baby. And i realized I didn’t need to worry about spilling it on the baby. I could relax and enjoy my drink. And a wave of relief swept over me. Then i opened tidy spreadsheets that didn’t cry. None of my co-workers cried, either. And honestly, the work was a lot more interesting than holding a baby.

114

I always find that a bit sad when women say stuff like that. Sort of like they have this imperative to create children whether they want to or not, then seem to resent it, then feel guilty for resenting it, all the while weighing it against “having a career” as if the height of achievement is some middle management job for Corporate fucking America. I don’t know if that applies to you, but it’s something I’ve seen a bit.

I generally like what I do because it involves some interesting problem solving or maybe I’ve worked with people I’ve liked or projects I find interesting. But at the end of the day, I don’t find any corporate work particularly meaningful to me. A year from now I could be at a completely different company doing completely different work and I would probably forget like 90% of the people and stuff I’ve been doing at my job. Or I could stay and 90% of the people and work might change making it feel like a completely different company anyway.

Which is not to say I want to take care of babies all day or have my wife take care of babies. Both my wife and I work so we had to hire a nanny while our kids were little to do most of the day to day heavy lifting. But generally I liked that we were both able to work remotely a lot to be around the kids as they were growing up.

115

Lol, i didn’t have kids because of a “biological imperative”. I had kids because i liked being part of a family, and wanted to still have a family as i aged. And of course there are no guarantees, but i now have two lovely adult children whom i enjoy vacationing with every year, and who grace my table for “big holidays” and who visit regularly. I played “hanabi” online with one last Sunday. The other joined us for dinner last night.

And there were lots of fun parts to rearing children. But i found it exhausting and frustrating, too. Especially when they were little. I was much happier playing the role of “Daddy” and being home evenings and weekends than i was being a full time mom.

And in 2018, my adult daughter and i spent a few days in Germany visiting a friend of mine whom i met at work in the 90s. I got a lot of satisfaction from work, both professional and personal.

Fortunately, my husband adores babies. It was always funny to be on an elevator with him and a crowd of people when someone brought a baby in. The head of every other woman and of my husband would swivel, and they’d all be mesmerized by the baby.

Anyway, i hope most deferential wives get a lot of satisfaction from holding babies, at least if their husbands want children. Many adults do. But it’s better to be “deferential” if the things you are being told to do are things that make you happy anyway.

116

I couldn’t have gone back to work fast enough. Problem was COVID lockdown. Both me and my husband working from home with terrible nanny and her baby watching my son just feet beyond my bedroom door. It was so claustrophobic.

I’m really glad I have a kid. I’m also really glad I have a career. I can think of some reasons why I would give up my career for my kid, but it definitely would feel like giving it up. Sometimes I think it would make life easier, but that doesn’t mean I would be happier.

Also, I hated having a newborn. None of that was enjoyable in the least. I wasn’t interested until he was about 8 months old. But I saw it coming that I probably wouldn’t be very excited at first, so I wasn’t worried about it. I knew it would come.

In retrospect, though, I know I would have enjoyed it more if I had even an inkling of how good it was going to be. I wish I could go back in time and just teleport into my hormone-addled brain what it felt like the first time he told me he loved me.

117

I was a SAHD for a bit between jobs when my daughter was two and my son was an infant.

We had day care that we had to use in the mornings or we would lose our slots so it wasn’t as bad as someone who doesn’t have an any time off.

I don’t know about the States, but I suspect that the pressure on SAHD is a lot lower than what many SAHM face. Japanese SAHMs tend to believe they need to be perfect mothers, make great meals, keep the house perfect, etc., and my goals were to make sure no one died from accidents or malnutrition while having fun.

We would have PTA events at daycare (yes, Japan does things quite differently than the US) and a lot of mothers would talk about how worried they were good mothers or not but I never heard that from fathers.

118

I suppose at every stage, sometimes I love it and sometimes I wish someone would invent a time machine so I can send a terminator back in time to punch me in the nuts.

This may be more a response for the “what is the meaning of life” thread, by I don’t think life is meant to be “easy”. It’s meant to be experienced. So I’m not really looking for someone to attend to my every need without complaint or have a life free of any challenges or difficulties.

I don’t want my kids bickering and otherwise being a PITA either, but I guess that comes with the territory sometimes.

119

Totally agreed. Doing hard things is one of my favorite things.

To quote Ms. Roosevelt, “You must do the thing you think you cannot do.”

Without the hard stuff, there can be no growth.

Now if only I could get my kid to love hard things.

120

For the most part, my take is that there is a just right amount of hard. Too easy and … boring. Too hard and … frustrating. Just in the realm that we can barely succeed … golden! That’s FUN. From my angle of thought if a kid, especially a younger kid, is having fun doing something more often than not it is because it is right at that mastery edge. And as a parent very little competes with seeing your kid look back and say: “I just did that?! Wow. I am awesome!”

121

I once had someone confess to me that their dream in life was basically to be someone’s slave. Like a completely subservient lifestyle kink submissive thing. I can’t fault someone’s kink, but I told them to be really careful if they ever actually try to go about it, because it’s a slippery road to exploitation.