Title says it all - where does the “reclaimed” refrigerant go? Does it get recycled? Do they have to pay to dispose of it? Are they venting it to the atmosphere?
I don’t follow the logic of sucking out refrigerant, repairing an HVAC unit, then pumping in refrigerant…are they using the same stuff? If yes, why do I get charged by the ounce for it?
Clearly I’m not understanding something about the way this industry works. I just don’t know what! 
Yes, it is stored, reused, or disposed of in some way that does not vent to the atmosphere. Some can be reconditioned and reused for the same purpose.
On a repair job where we are replacing a part and the system is not leaking we will recover the existing freon and refill the system when finished. The machines clean and recycle the freon into the reservoir with the new freon. We are supposed to note how much comes out and then how much goes back in only charging for the difference. If we suspect contamination which is rare we will suck it into a tank designated for disposal. Many shops will charge based on the capacity of your system ignoring how much they recycled.
If they pump it out, fix the system, then pump it back in, you should only get charged for the extra amount they added in, which is typical if you had a leak. Plus (at least in the commercial refrigeration industry), there’s usually a charge for usage of the pump plus time/labor etc.
But, yes, it’s stored. If you had your system evacuated and you didn’t have it refilled, it would be reused on another job.
ETA, since you’re talking about ounces here, I’m guessing this is a car or home refrigerator or something. If that’s the case, I could see them charging you the way the did since it might just be easier then having you call up complaining about things like ‘Suction Pump $50’ or “30 minutes labor $45” (but he was just standing there watching it do nothing) etc…
Also, I see you asked it, but I’ll ask anyways, are you sure they charged the system with the same thing. If the system was converted there going to charged you for the full amount that the system holds.
See below.
Or not, because…
I am legally obliged to reclaim the refrigerant rather than simply release it into the atmosphere as was the norm decades ago. In order to do this, I need a machine that costs thousands of dollars. Part of my fee includes a charge for the use of said machine, which “cleans up” the refrigerant for re-use with a filter/drier (absorbs moisture) and an oil separator. The fee is structured as $X for the reclaim/recovery operation plus $Y per ounce of refrigerant reclaimed – with $Y/oz. being what I charge for refrigerant I provide. So it works out the same as $X and I keep the stuff. Whether you want to look at it as paying to get the same refrigerant back (but made suitable for re-use by my machine) or paying to extract it in the first place is up to you, but in essence if I reclaim it then it’s mine.
You can get around this by buying your own machine, or by dumping the refrigerant into the atmosphere yourself so that the system is empty, which is not wise as it can let moisture into the system (and which may or may not be legal for you to do, but is definitely not legal for me to do).
He may be doing nothing other than monitoring the equipment do its thing, but again that equipment ain’t free, so whether it’s billed as labor or equipment use fee it’s a legitimate charge.
Yeah, I get that, profit and all. Totally acceptable as far as I’m concerned. What prompted my question is that I had a tech come out and fill an empty ac system with refrigerant - even though I didn’t ask him to do that. I asked for a quote to have the system moved. I had already had the system drained in advance of this move - the first tech wasn’t able to get the job done all the way and had to back out.
Now when they come move the system, they have to “reclaim” the refrigerant, which costs $ and then pump in what they’re calling “new” refrigerant, which they’re charging for in the quote.
So I wanted to make sure that when I began hollering, I came from a position of knowledge, instead of ignorance.
From what I read here, it sounds like it shouldn’t have been filled by the tech in the first place. I would think that any costs to fill the system that first time and to empty it prior to moving should be borne by the company. Their mistake, their responsibility. Now, if there was a legitimate reason to fill it first, that’s a different story.
This a home AC system I assume
Are both techs from the same company or is this two different companies?
If both techs are from the same company and they are taking out and recharging with the same type of refrigerant, I would call them on that. They shouldn’t be charging you (too much) for what they put back in or, at the very least, they should buy back what they take out.
If the two techs are from two different companies, then your sort of SOL.
Wait, why don’t we start from the beginning. Can you explain exactly what happened, what kind of system (AC, cooler etc) this is, how many companies are involved, all the steps that have happened, what you’ve been billed for. If we can get a clear picture, this might be easier.
Meh, I got the information i need to holler from an informed position. Thanks a bunch for all the replies!
First HVAC guy comes out, drains system, isn’t able to continue with work, backs out.
Second HVAC company on first visit decided on their own initiative to fill the system, didn’t provide quote for system move, their screwup, not mine. Second guy had to come from this company and provide quote for move, and said he’d cut first bill in half. Meh. Close enough for me.
Unless the laws have been changed since reusing refrigerant from one job for another job is against the law. Unless it has been brought processed back to ANSI standard. (sorry I forgot the proper term).
I suppose that’s entirely possible, I really don’t know what happens between the time they take it from one place and the time it shows up at another. I just know that they can suck it out of my system, do some work and pump it back in. I never really gave much thought to what happens on the very small handful of times they’ve left with some of mine. Over the years we’ve managed to accumulate one or two empty bottles and a few full ones (about the size of propane grill tanks) so if there’s excess, we have them pump it into our tanks and leave it with us. That way, when there’s a leak and they have to add, they can use our stuff and not charge us $40 a pound for it (or whatever the going rate is today).
It’s probably not a terrible idea, but I don’t know why there’s a law against it. I mean, you never know how a business treats there own mechanicals or what an HVAC’s policies are. For example, the company we use requires their employees to replace the drier and evacuate the system (for an hour maybe?) if it’s been open to the environment for more then 20 minutes. But John that does HVAC work out of his garage might not be that strict. And if he’s been doing work on your system for a few years without replacing the drier/filter there might be a lot of contamination and moisture in there. Now, when you call a real HVAC company to come out and they pull the old stuff out and put new stuff in, they’ll take it back and clean it, sure, but like I said, I’m not sure why that’s a law. Good practice, yeah, but why is it law. What would happen if you put that dirty refrigerant in another system? The only thing I can think of is that it might rust out some parts and spring a leak, but I can’t think of that ever happening, not from the inside out anyways.
It can be legally used on equipment that is owned by the owner where it came from.
Part of the explained reason is to be sure the customer is getting clean refrigerant. Dirty refrigerant can effect system efficiency, damage the system, cause the compressor motor to fail.
Refrigerant is pretty easy to recycle and clean. If it is contaminated with air you simply release the gas at the top of your bottle as the air will not turn to liquid under pressure. As for contaminates when you transer the freon from the holding tank to your reservoir it is supposed to transfer as a gas not a liquid allowing the solid contaminates that will not boil off to be left behind. Very similar to operating a still but adding heat is not neccessary as long as you have pressure.
but don’t get caught in the us there are fines
The approved recycling machines do it automaticaly. They just let out a big fart. Much more accurate than venting by feel. It monitors the pressure verses the temperature and knows when air is present.
Just so everyone has a frame of reference the machine we have at work sells for about 4 Kilobucks and I just paid 1.5 Kilobucks on a repair.
Next year the rules change and I get to buy another one.
I recently had a compressor short out which was under warranty. I was advised that the warranty covers parts but not labor, shipping, etc. OK, fair enough. The capacity of my system is 11.75 lbs. I was initially told that I would have to pay for the system to be refilled to it’s capacity. I asked why couldn’t the freon that was in there be recovered and reused. He asked “You wouldn’t want to damage your new compressor with contaminated freon would you?” I didn’t answer, but gave him a confused look. (I was under the impression that the recovery machines took care of this AND the freon had just been put in at the end of last season when the condensor was replaced so I didn’t think it would be contaminated)
He had to order the compressor and come back after it came in. At some point in between, he told us that he would recover what he could but would charge us for the difference. I was not there when he returned, but when I got home my wife showed me the bill which indicated that he billed us for 6 lbs of freon indicating that he was only able to recover about half of the system capacity or he recovered it all and half of it was contaminated or otherwise unusable. There was no leak in the system as it was functioning great before it flipped the circuit breaker and blew the condensor.
Can anyone think of a valid reason for being billed for 6 lbs of freon in addition to a recovery fee? I understand the recovery fee for use of the machine. I understand the labor charge for “standing there watching his machine work”, I understand that out of 11.75 lbs, they might only be able to recover, lets say 11 lbs, but I don’t understand only being able to recover half.
Gary T, as far as what you recover being yours, that doesn’t make sense. That’s like a auto repair shop refusing to give you your old parts because they used their tools to remove them. By that logic, if I have a company recover minerals from my land, my minerals belong to them because they used their expensive equipment to recover the minerals. Sure, a recovery fee is appropriate but it is not appropriate that the fee to recover the freon convieniently coincide with the retail price of freon therefore making it yours by default.
Using your logic, if you repaired a system with a 10 pound capacity that had a leak it would be much more to your benefit if that system was near full than near empty. If it had leaked down to 1 lb, you could only bill for reclaiming 1 lb, but would have to provide 9 lbs from your own supply. On the other hand, if the system had 9 lbs you would bill for recovering 9 lbs and only provide 1 lb from your own supply. You said $Y represented both what you charge for freon you provide AND the price you charge to recover freon per unit. This is in addition to the “reclaim/recovery operation.” So, if you are charging $30 per pound, as an example, you are billing $300 in both cases PLUS the $X “reclaim/recovery” fee but if the system was near full having 9 lbs, you only had to provide 1lb of freon but billed for 10 lbs. It’s fair to charge a recovery fee, but $270 plus the $X recovery fee when you only had to provide 1 lb of freon is over the top.
Remember, your machine that cost thousands of dollars is just a tool that is required to do your job. It’s no different than a repair shop that does wheel alignments. They must have this expensive tool to do the job, but they don’t get to bill you a fee for using the machine AND a fee for how many turns the machine tell them to make to adjust your alignment. The cost of this machine is spread over all of your clients and just part of the cost of doing business.
WRT that, it’s actually kind of a nice industry standard. Look at it this way. If you go and get your oil changed and it should cost $30, would you rather it cost $35 to help pay for their alignment machine? Or would you rather get your wheels aligned and pay a bit more for use of the machine and only pay $30 for an oil change?
When I have service done from my HVAC people there’s a charge for the pump. If I don’t use the pump there’s no charge.
I remember a while back I was kind of annoyed when I looked at their bill and noticed (very small, like pennies) charges for individual screws and wire nuts. Bugged me at first, but then I figured it makes more sense for me to pay for the wire nuts and screws that they use on my job, but not pay for the ones that they use on other jobs, right? Otherwise they’ll just raise their hourly rate a bit to cover it as a ‘cost of doing business’ and everyone will pay for it. So, should I have to pay an extra, say, two or three dollars an hour when there’s no electrical work so that they can pay for all the wire nuts they used on the install at the job down the road? I’d rather be charged for exactly what my job consumed (plus any profit that the company feels is fair). Should I pay an extra $5 or $10 an hour to pay for the recovery pump even if it isn’t used on my job?
Basically, it’s convenient for the shop owner to just charge a flat rate to cover all the different situations, but it’s almost always cheaper for the individual to only pay for exactly what they used. But unless they understand what they’re being charged for, it may result in a lot more calls/complaints to the shop asking about things like “Recovery pump” or “Why am I getting charged for wirenuts and zip screws and soldering rods” or “Why am I getting charged $150 an hour, he spent half the time he was here on the phone troubleshooting someone elses AC” (while the pump was running and he was still keeping an eye on the meters to check for leaks). It’s just easier to bill it as “Came out to find Compressor cycling and evaporator iced over, tested system and found low on freon. Found leak. Fixed leak, recharged, tested system and confirmed that it works…$450” and leave it at that.
Gary you can correct me if I am wrong. When all this BS on CFCs started the cost of reclaiming contaminated gas made it not worth doing the reclaiming. When I worked for a major department store if we worked on a system with contaminated gas we recovered took it into the supply company who sent it in to be reclaimed. Reclaiming the gas vs replacing was a bad choice. Some of our chillers had 600 to 700 lbs of R11.
AS a side bar If I had a motor burn out I would want new gas or gas factory reclaimed gas.