Hypocricy of Christianity in regard to stem cells

Might wanna not assume I haven’t.

The laws we have today are not in any significant or meaningful way based on the ten commandments. To the extent that any of our laws --such as the ones prohibiting theft and murder – do coincide with prohibitions in the ten commandements, those same prohibitions have existed in nearly all codified law systems, including those predating Judaic law.

Some of our laws and rights – including the ones guaranteeing freedom of speech and worship – directly contradict the first two commandments.

The basis of our legal structure is the English common law (offer void in Louisiana). The basis of our government originated in Greece.

Really, our laws have naught to do with the ten commandments. They never did, and they don’t now. This is a lie that Christians tell themselves to prop up their feeble notion that “America is a Christian nation.”

Perhaps my memory is off, but seems to me I recall reading that the commandments were the oldest surviving set of recorded laws. Not saying laws didn’t exist before then, but that we don’t have a record of what those laws were.

Also, the framers of the Constitution did NOT intend for the freedom of religion provision to apply to any religion conceived by the mind of man. That interpretation has been applied during the years since. They were abolishing the requirement to belong to a specific religion (such as the Church of England). It didn’t cross their minds that Satanism, for example, would be considered a viable religion.

You may be correct, but that doesn’t change the fact that nearly all systems of codified law, including those among societies that had never heard of the Jews or the ten commandments, prohibit theft, rape and murder. Those prohibitions are simply a good idea for any society that wants to last more than a few years. Nor does it change the fact that “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” and “Thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain” aren’t exactly conducive to freedom of speech and religion.

This is nonsense. The historical record does not back this up at all.

I’ll try to dig up my sources on that last point of contention, pld. Until then, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

It’s possible that a variant of the Code of Hammurabi predates the Hebrew Commandments. But really, Sauron, if you want to demonstrate that the Commandments are the basis of US law, you’ll need to do better than “I say so.”

First, please provide any citations you might have from the authors of the Constitution that indicate they were basing it upon the Ten Commandments.

Second, (as I asked above) please explain why, if the Ten Commandments are the basis of our Constitutional law, there is nothing in the Constitution covering ANY of the Commandments?

More explicitly, from Exodus 20:1-17 (NIV), we see the commandments (verse numbers removed and commandments bolded and numbered for clarity):

Let’s see . . . nope. The Constitution doesn’t deal with any of those at all.
Fair enough. Let’s drop the Constitutional issue and move on to the other issue you’re really trying to contend–that the Ten Commandments are the basis of our day-to-day law, rather than the Constitution.

Murder? Check.
Theft? Check.
False witness? Check.

Three of ten. Not good, pally.

Ok, I’ll concede honoring of the sabbath. There are still plenty of archaic blue laws, and most government offices are closed on weekends.

Four of ten. .400 is a hell of an average if you’re a baseball player, of if you’re Shaquille O’Neal making foul shots, but it sucks donkey dicks in a debate.

Sauron, I await eagerly your response.

-a-

Well, you’re gonna have to wait a bit longer; as I thought I clearly indicated above, my source materials aren’t handy at the moment.

Eagerness on my part by no means indicates impatience. Please, take your time.

I agree with you there, but I’m not sure you’ll like where that leads. One of things that has brought the issue of embryonic stem cell research to such prominence is the VERY emotional and very issues-light pleas of celebrities who are facing debilitating disease or living with someone who is–Christopher Reeve, Nancy Reagan, Michael J. Fox, and Mary Tyler Moore, among others. However, just because someone is dealing with an awful affliction does not make them an expert on the affliction or its possible treatments. Indeed, one could say that desperation for a cure and the desire to find hope wherever it may be found makes such people singularly emotional and prone to believe in the promise of treatments that may do no good at all. Scientists and physicians generally try to quash unrealistic hopes. Surely if people who have religious convictions have no place in this debate because of the emotions you feel they bring to the issue, neither should celebrities dealing with horrible tragedy, right?

Indeed, I think the influence of celebrities on this debate is one reason why scientists who oppose embryonic stem cell research are getting such short shrift. In many other scientific debates, it’s considered a bad thing to go off the deep end and try all sorts of unproven techniques before an understanding of the basic science is in place. We do not yet have a handle on the capabilities of adult, placental, and unbilical stem cells, and yet there are scientists out there clamoring to widen the field even more. Unfortunately, scientists who advocate taking a measured approach while being very careful of ethical issues don’t have a celebtrity contingent to back them up.

“Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being
accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.”- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, 1789

“I am informed that a Ship with Palatines is gone up to Baltimore, among whom are a number of Tradesmen. I am a good deal in want of a House Joiner and Bricklayer, (who really understand their profession) and you would do me a favor by purchasing one of each, for me. I would not confine you to Palatines. If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, Jews or Christian of an Sect, or they may be Atheists. I would however prefer middle aged, to young men.” -G. Washington, letter to his agent, contracting for work to be done on Mt. Vernon.

I don’t know about you, but I wasn’t even aware any celebrities were speaking out about this until after George’s speech.

And I think my position leads where I’ve been saying it should lead throughout this debate in every thread: to science and law. Our laws permit the creation and destruction of embryos to satisfy the personal needs of private individuals to spread their seed into the coming generations…but suddenly we get all bent out of shape about creating and destroying embryos for possibly curing disease and easing suffering of millions?

And this is, you contend, an * ethical * distinction?

I’m sorry, you did mean * purely political *, right?

stoid

Stoid, I think you’ll find I’ve not been rude to you, and that I’ve asked before whether I was mischaracterizing you. Perhaps you could return the favor and not mischaracterize my position or insinuate that I’m lying about it.

Having said that, I feel you have not been following the debate very closely if you have not seen the parade of celebrities moseying up to Capitol Hill to plead the case for embryonic stem cell research. C-SPAN covered it pretty thoroughly. Again, I ask: If you feel that religious and ethical belief are emotional and have no place, then surely Mr. Reeve, Mrs. Reagan, Mr. Fox, and so on should also be given short shrift, especially in that their stands are not just emotional but personally emotional, right? The fact that they support the research is irrelevant if we’re being fair and impartial. If you were not aware of this aspect of the political decision, then you yourself are acting out of a lack of understanding, right? Please keep in mind that you’ve indicated before that a lack of understanding of the issues is a fundamental problem here. Does your lack of understanding regarding the scientific and ethical reasons that some scientists and lay people have to oppose embryonic stem cell research make you unqualified to have an opinion?

Also, if we’re going to rely on science, we should also be given both sides by the media, right? Scientists who feel that this move is occurring too soon, is giving false hope to vulnerable people, and is being done without full knowledge of the basic science and without proper concern for ethics (and again, I’ll repeat–universities, research institutes, and hospitals have bioethics boards precisely because these issues cannot be watered down to politics and law and science. Politics changes with political climate, as do laws, and science divorced from ethics has produced some truly awful consequences) should get equal time with those who advocate hurrying on. You accuse my beliefs of being “purely political,” yet you do not see the politics involved in stacking the deck for one side and not educating the public about all the issues involved.

This isn’t exactly what I had in mind, but perhaps some of the following excerpts will help to explain my point. (My apologies for the length.)

First, from British author Paul Johnson (author of A History of Christianity and A History of the Jews), comes this portion of a lecture given at the Pierpoint Morgan Library in New York:

"So American freedom and independence were brought about essentially by a religious coalition, which provided the rank and file of a movement led by a more narrowly based elite of Enlightenment men. John Adams, who had lost his original religious faith, nonetheless recognized the essential role played by religion in unifying the majority of the people behind the independence movement and giving them common beliefs and aims:

One great advantage of the Christian religion is that it brings the great principle of the law of nature and nations, love your neighbor as yourself, and do to others as you would have that others should do to you—to the knowledge, belief, and veneration of the whole people. Children, servants, women, and men are all professors in the science of public as well as private morality…The duties and rights of the man and the citizen are thus taught from early infancy.

What in effect John Adams was implying, albeit he was a secularist and a nonchurchman, was that the form of Christianity which had developed in America was a kind of ecumenical and unofficial state religion, a religion suited by its nature, not by any legal claims, to be given recognition by the republic because it was itself the civil and moral creed of republicanism.

Hence, though the Constitution and the Bill of Rights made no provision for a state church—quite the contrary—there was an implied and unchallenged understanding that America was a religious country, that the republic was religious not necessarily in its forms but in its bones, that it was inconceivable that it could have come into existence, or could continue and flourish, without an overriding religious sentiment pervading every nook and cranny of its society. This religious sentiment was based on the Scriptures and the Decalogue, was embodied in the moral consensus of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and manifested itself in countless forms of mainly Christian worship.

Since American religion was a collection of faiths, coexisting in mutual tolerance, there was no alternative but to create a secular state entirely separated from any church. But there was an unspoken understanding that, in an emotional sense, the republic was not secular. It was still the City upon a Hill, watched over and safeguarded by divine providence, and constituting a beacon of enlightenment and an exemplar of conduct for the rest of the world.

This is what President Washington clearly intended to convey in the key passage of his farewell address of 1796. Though he was careful to observe the constitutional and secularist forms, the underlying emotion was plainly religious in inspiration. He implied, indeed, that the voice of the American people was a providential one, and that in sustaining him both as their general and their first President, and enabling the republic to be born and to survive and flourish, it had been giving expression to a providential plan:

Profoundly penetrated by this idea, I shall carry it with me to my grave, as a strong incitement to unceasing vows that heaven may continue to you the choicest token of its beneficence—that your union and brotherly affection may be perpetual—that the free Constitution, which is the work of your hands, may be sacredly maintained—that its administration in every department may be stamped with wisdom and virtue—that in fine the happiness of the people of these states, under the auspices of liberty, [may be preserved] by so careful a preservation and so prudent a use of this blessing, as will acquire to them the glory of recommending it to the applause, the affection, and adoption of every nation, which is yet a stranger to it.

In Washington’s world view, then, the city was still upon a hill, the new nation was still elect, its creation and mission were providential, or as he put it, “sacredly maintained,” under heaven, the recipient of a unique “blessing” in the historical plan of the deity for humanity. That is not so far from Governor Winthrop’s view, though so much had happened in the meantime; and it would continue to be the view of the American majority for the next century and a half."

Now, part of a judgement issued by the Supreme Court of Delaware:

“Long before Lord Hale declared that Christianity was a part of the laws of England, the Court of Kings Bench, 34 Eliz. in Ratcliff’s case, 3 Coke Rep. 40, b. had gone so far as to declare that “in almost all cases, the common law was grounded on the law of God, which it was said was causa causans,” and the court cited the 27th chapter of Numbers, to show that their judgment on a common law principle in regard to the law of inheritance, was founded on God’s revelation of that law to Moses.”
State v. Chandler, 2 Harr. 553 at 561 (1837)

From Of Rights and Duties: A Jeffersonian Dialogue by Paul Grimley Kuntz (as published in Modern Age: A Quarterly Review, Vol.38, No.3, p.224):

“Mr. Jefferson, as Secretary of State, reported to the Cabinet of President Washington that relations between nations are statements of reciprocal “rights and obligations.” Isn’t that what we now mean when we say that our system is not merely one of liberty but “liberty under law” or “ordered liberty?” What Jefferson meant by duties was rooted in the Ten Commandments of Moses. If the “Jefferson Bible” means anything, in the version of the Decalogue revised by Jesus, “The love of God…is but a branch of our moral duties, which are generally divided into duties to God and duties to man.” Yet this does not, Jefferson adds, rule out the morality of the atheist. The full statement of the basis of the moral commandments is found in the second table of the Decalogue: “Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness,” which Jefferson found necessary and universal, and resting on the nature of obligation between persons in society.”

(Incidentally, Kuntz uses as a source for this Thomas Jefferson Writings, a compilation of letters written by Jefferson.)

From Russell Kirk’s The Roots of American Order, Pepperdine University Press, 1977:

"So the Ten Commandments, the Decalogue, are not a set of harsh prohibitions imposed by an arbitrary tribal deity. Instead, they are liberating rules that enable a people to diminish the tyranny of sin; that teach a people how to live with one another and in relation with God, how to restrain violence and fraud, how to know justice and to raise themselves above the level of predatory animals…

The Law is not merely the decree of a monarch who may pretend to divine powers—that the Israelites learned. The Law is not merely a body of convenient customs and usages that men have developed for themselves. The Law is not the instrument of oppression by a class or a hierarchy. For the true Law is derived from the Covenant that God has made and reaffirmed with his people. The Law is revealed to save man from self-destruction; to redeem man from sin and its consequences; to keep man from becoming a Cain, his hand against every man’s; to enable man to resemble the God in whose image he was created.

Throughout western civilization, and indeed in some degree through the later world, the Hebraic understanding of Covenant and Law would spread, in forms both religious and secular. The idea of an enduring Covenant, or compact, whether between God and people or merely between man and man, took various styles in various lands and ages; it passed into medieval society through Christian teaching, and became essential to the social order of Britain, from which society most settlers in North America came. This concept and reality of Covenant was not confined to those American colonies—notably the New England settlements and Pennsylvania—which were fundamentally religious in their motive. Like the people of Israel and Judah, the Americans broke solemn covenants repeatedly; but like Israel, America nevertheless knew that without a covenant, the people would be lost…

A principal difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution was this: the American revolutionaries in general held a biblical view of man and his bent toward sin, while the French revolutionaries in general attempted to substitute for the biblical understanding an optimistic doctrine of human goodness advanced by the philosophes of the rationalistic Enlightenment. The American view led to the Constitution of 1787; the French view, to the Terror and to a new autocracy. The American Constitution is a practical secular covenant, drawn up by men who (with few exceptions) believed in a sacred Covenant, designed to restrain the human tendencies toward violence and fraud; the American Constitution is a fundamental law deliberately meant to place checks upon will and appetite. The French innovators would endure no such checks upon popular impulses; they ended under a far more arbitrary domination…

The New England Puritans not only ordered their commonwealth by the Ten Commandments and the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, but constantly drew parallels between themselves and the people of Israel and Judah. The Puritans thought of themselves as experiencing afresh, under God, the tribulations and the successes of the Hebrew people. “For answers to their problems,” says Daniel Boorstin, "they drew as readily on Exodus, Kings, or Romans, as on the less narrative portions of the Bible. Their peculiar circumstances and their flair for the dramatic led them to see special significance in these narrative passages. The basic reality in their life was the analogy with the Children of Israel. They conceived that by going out into the Wilderness, they were reliving the story of Exodus and not merely obeying an explicit command to go into the wilderness. For them the Bible was less a body of legislation than a set of binding precedents.

New England’s intellectual leadership, which would give that region an influence over the United States disproportionate to New England’s population, transmitted this understanding of the Hebrew patrimony far beyond the New England colonies."

Thanks for the quotations.

I still await your response to my post.

According to Britannica, Hammurabi was King of Babylon from 1792-1750 BC. I’m not certain if his Code of Laws was written before or after the 10 Commandments. (It’s a LONG code, BTW, 282 laws in all.)

Oh, and Britannica.com is no longer free.

I think my point is getting crossed up slightly. Or, more likely, I’m not explaining myself well.

What I was trying to indicate was that the framers of the Constitution, and the framers of many U.S. laws, have been influenced by religious principles throughout the ages. To say that religious views and opinions aren’t a part of U.S. law is ridiculous.

I never intended to state the the entire U.S. Constitution was based solely upon the ten commandments. I did mean to say that the framers of the Constitution were influenced by religious beliefs in their times.

I’m 99.9 percent sure I have a book at home with various quotes and essays from Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and others who contributed to the creation of the Constitution that indicate their belief in a divine Providence that was guiding their hand as they crafted the document. Failing the use of that book, though, I attempted to glean a few quotes from the 'Net that would convey the same info.

I didn’t think I was being rude, I’m sorry if you felt I was. A bit sarcastic perhaps. And I wasn’t insinuating that you had lied about a thing.

Now you are either misunderstanding or mischaracterizing. I did not say that emotion had no place. Neither did I say eithcs had no place.

I don’t think celebrities should be given any special consideration because of their celebrity, no. And if they are misinformed and are spewing misinformation, then they should certainly be ignored. But the emotional pleas of people who are suffering and who DO understand the issues should certainly be taken into account. That is who all this research is * about. * I wasn’t dismissing emotion, I was dismissing emotion based on lack of understanding.

What part do I fail to understand about the reasons people have a problem with it? Is it NOT because they view cells in a petri dish as a “human life”? Because if it isn’t, I certainly am in need of some education on the topic…it will be big news to me.

There would be no “ethics” issues if it wasn’t for the fact that some people see the coollection of cells in a petri dish as a human being. Absent that, all these concerns would vanish. If it was just drugs we were talking about researching, there would be no debate.

I think it is positively grotesque to say it’s ok to create and destroy embryos for personal fulfillment and out the other side one’s mouth say it’s wrong to do so for possible cures for suffering, death and disease. I

All I have ever asked for is consistency in this. The law says embryos in petri dishes are not people, they are tissue. Let’s make our policy based on that.

stoid

Well it’s nice we got the miscommunication out of the way, Stoid, but there’s still this:

This has nothing to do with one’s stance on stem cell research. BTW, let’s not forget the people in the military volunteered to be there knowing they may have to go to war.
**

You’re willing to bet? You you don’t have any evidence to make that claim? So that’s still your own mind making the leap based on your own personal prejudices and you haven’t shown a logical connection between “no funding for stem cell research” = “support for sending teens to war”
**

Um no, that’s not how it works, Stoid. YOU made the claim, YOU come up with the evidence to back it. If this is just your thoughts and opinions, then shut up as there is no basis for it other than your own personal leanings and drop it as the unrelated topic it is.

Crunchy, you are just determined to make a fight out of this, aren’t you? You ASKED me what I meant when I said “I’m betting…” and I TOLD you. You are free to disagree with my opinion. But I have every right to have it and to express it. And I think you telling me to “shut up” is off the mark, thank you very much.

I think the two things, while not “related” are certainly similar and readily comparable. As I said, they are both about sacrifice for the greater good…do you deny that? And depending on your point of view, they are both about sacrifice of human life, are they not? If you disagree with these conclusions, please explain to me why.

stoid
Getting a bit annoid with your attitude.

Thanks, I’ll take your word for that. I merely bristled at the notion that you were insinuating that opposition to embryonic stem cell research is “purely political.” Considering that George W. Bush wasn’t the guy I voted for and that I don’t take my ethical or spiritual cues from him, you can see how that might grate.

Not true. If scientists wanted to investigate unproven drugs when they did not fully understand the capabilities of drugs already on the market, that would be an ethical problem (i.e., poor use of scientific method and wasting limited funds on notions with limited promise when proven methods have not yet been exploited to their fullest potential). The March 8 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine reports terrible side effects associated with the injection of embryonic stem cells into a patient with Parkinson’s disease. A child in China who was injected with embryonic stem cells developed a teratoma (a tumor containing hair, teeth, and other tissues) at the injection site. Potential to turn into ANY kind of tissue is a double-edged sword. At the same time, the use of adult, placenta, and umbilical cord stem cells has already achieved great results without as great a risk of rejection, untoward side effects, and teratoma formation. To reject these proven techniques, which have met up with Hippocrates’ injunction to first do no harm in order to try an unproven technique that you yourself say destroys something ALIVE, even if you do not agree it is a human person, strikes me as unethical and strikes others as bad science. Just as it’s better to perform research that does not invlove the killing of laboratory animals if there’s another option, it’s better to perform stem cell experiments that don’t start with something alive and end with something dead. I understand the fullness of the reasons some scientists want to use these embryonic cells. The least you could do is read up on the SCIENTIFIC reasons why some scientists oppose this resarch. Again, scientists who urge caution and restraint and low expectations don’t have sick celebrities backing them up, so the media doesn’t cover them as heavily, but that side is out there.

I agree. So does the Catholic Church (bet you never thought you’d have anything in common with them!) :wink:

Stoid:

<<<the emotional pleas of people who do not understand the issues should not be taken into account.>>
I would suggest that anyone who believes that the issue of stem-cell research is NOT a difficult and complicated and difficult ethical matter, or who thinks it’s as simple as you seem to imply in your own post (“The law says it’s not a person. Let’s just make our policy based on that.”), while airily dismissing all non-empirical concerns, is someone who does not fully understand the issue.