I Agree with Everything She Said, and yet, NNNYYYRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Two_Many_Cats

But the word girl implies not fully mature. This is how women have been regarded throughout history. And there is a lingering sexist mindset that not fully mature is how women should be. Why else would there be so much pressure for women to look younger than they are?

I agree with the first sentence and the same applies to boy. I think this is a constant on both sides actually. Boy denotes a lack of maturity as well and as well as girl has been said in a derogatory way throughout history as well.

The third sentence is the one I disagree with. I don’t think that’s it at all, at least not any more. I do think the term is used to express an opinion about maturity but it’s used that way for both sexes. After all, boys will be boys.

I think it’s more a reflection of the incongruity of the physical age and the maturity age and it doesn’t have to be negative. The older you get the more you look back nostalgically on what you had so you’re more likely to not mind being called a boy or girl whereas a 15 year old would be simmering to be called that. I mean, age is just a number.

To answer your question,I’ll go with biology. A woman has certain child bearing years and biologically we are hard wired to think first of procreation not recreation and that requires a woman of child bearing years. Men, of course, have a much longer range in this regard. Unless this pressure is for some other reason than to be attractive, and I admit to being impervious to most social pressures so there may well be some, then this makes sense. Biologically, a healthy child bearing mate would seem to be a very powerful drive and we are a visually driven species.

[VinylTurnip]

@Mr.Excellent

Aren’t lesbians women? I mean, unless I’ve been very badly misinformed…

Yes, but not all women are lesbians. Just the ones who shot me down. Am I right, guys? C’mon, high-five! Up here, brah!

[Two_Many_Cats]

Okay, I’ll risk getting fired and tell you the answer.

Sexism cuts both ways.

Our society as a whole expects and accepts that more men will be murdered than women. Therefore, there is no huge outcry to fund an extra effort to process the evidence thereof.

Murders are far more likely to cause outrage if it is women being murdered.

It’s one of situations where men get the shortshrift of sexism.

Welcome to the world of the oppressed, guys. Or as you would say, dudes.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Two_Many_Cats

Very well. To paraphrase

If sexism is still alive and well, and slowing down the funds for rape evidence processing, why don’t men demand more funds for murder evidence processing since murder affects men far more than women?
I’ll give you another hint. Sexism is alive and well.

Don’t forget the other hint I gave: Feminism is admirable only when it doesn’t focus on women.

Oops. Lunch break is over. Gotta go.

It’s obvious, while more men than women are murdered an even vaster number of men than women are murderers so the sexism answer is that it wouldn’t make that much sense to heavily prosecute a crime when you aren’t getting a good ROI in terms of persecuting the real enemy, the opposite sex.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Call LensCrafters, because you have poor insight.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Two_Many_Cats

Okay, I’ll risk getting fired and tell you the answer.

Sexism cuts both ways.

Our society as a whole expects and accepts that more men will be murdered than women. Therefore, there is no huge outcry to fund an extra effort to process the evidence thereof.

Murders are far more likely to cause outrage if it is women being murdered.

It’s one of situations where men get the shortshrift of sexism.

Welcome to the world of the oppressed, guys. Or as you would say, dudes.

Honestly, with the total inundation of the television airwaves with crime shows and forensic shows, I’d bet that more people think that murders are already well handled in most cases than think about how it’s not that outrageous when a man kills a man so lets keep funding down.

[tdn]

OK, so…

It’s acceptable for men to be murdered? In civilized society, I don’t think that murder of anyone has ever really been acceptable. (There are some exceptions, of course.)

But it seems like the point you’re trying to drive at is that if there is less sexism, fewer men will be murdered, therefore it behooves us to let women wear slacks and earn high salaries. Is that about right?

[Cat_Fight]

@Two_Many_Cats

Okay, I’ll risk getting fired and tell you the answer.

Sexism cuts both ways.

Our society as a whole expects and accepts that more men will be murdered than women. Therefore, there is no huge outcry to fund an extra effort to process the evidence thereof.

Murders are far more likely to cause outrage if it is women being murdered.

It’s one of situations where men get the shortshrift of sexism.

Welcome to the world of the oppressed, guys. Or as you would say, dudes.

About a third of US women who are murdered are killed by a husband or boyfriend (with a further 30 percent acquainted with their killer) , versus four percent of male murder victims. I think this causes outrage because these aren’t ‘known to police’ murders (code for gang activity, drug dealing, etc.) they’re what some people see as – yes, I’ll say it – a violation of the sanctity of marriage/love, however ridiculous that is. While domestic violence often seems insurmountable, I think people really do see it as a problem with a solution – build girls’ self-esteem*, create and support shelters, stop glamorizing abusive relationships in the media – whereas many of the murdered men we actually hear about (at least on the news) are involved in illegal activities or on the receiving end of seemingly random violence. In other words, anything newsworthy (not that a woman being killed by her lover, husband or ex is newsworthy, unless maybe she’s particularly attractive and white, and he offed the children, too).

*Not to discount domestic violence involving straight and gay men as victims – which has been woefully neglected but does seem to be getting better, in terms of support systems and public awareness, at least in my neck of the woods.

[Chessic_Sense]

@Two_Many_Cats

Why else would there be so much pressure for women to look younger than they are?

One word: Combovers.

@Two_Many_Cats

Excuse me, where have I said anything hateful about men? Or sexist about men?

When you started talking about feminism. Here’s the thought process.

1. X affects women.
2. I have an opinion about X.
3. Women therefore agree with me.
4. If women agree, then it must be the men who disagree.
5. Men are hurting women.

In step 3, you hijack the opinions of 3 billion other people, when many of those 3 billion people don’t want this law passed, don’t want all rape kits processed, and don’t mind being called chicks. In step 4 and 5, you conclude that men are hurting you. I’m a man. So you’re saying that I’m hurting you. This is where the hate and sexism occurs.

You and I live on the same planet. What you do affects me, and vice versa. If it’s a woman’s issue, then it’s my issue too. And I take offense to your implicit assertion that everyone with a vagina agrees with you and that my penis makes me wrong. In reality, your cause isn’t as united as you wish it were. There’s a very short list of topics that count as true “women’s issues”, and they all involve your body parts.

It seems like the genesis of this Pit thread is that you’re pissed off that other women don’t agree with you. You perceive that feminism is dead because there isn’t a unified movement that consists of women. This is bad to you. But I have news for you: “Woman” is not a label that people hold loyalty towards. Not like “[sport] fan”, “American”, “Southerner” or “Jew”.

@Frank

The type of feminism that demands equal opportunity and equal respect without demanding special attention and special allowances–that type is growing stronger every day.

Your reaction to this statement (“Feminism is admirable only when it doesn’t focus on women”) proves my point. Everyone can get behind Frank’s point. You can’t, because it doesn’t specifically show how men are harming you. You’re wearing a jersey of a team that doesn’t exist. Take it off.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Two_Many_Cats

The way Lisa Madigan put it was by saying at first that it was a women’s issue, then she corrected herself in mid-sentence to say that it was a children’s issue. She definitely implied that children’s issues are more important.

The push to cure breast cancer is also an example of a disguised women’s issue. This one happens to be dressed up as a health issue. In some other thread on this board, someone complained that breast cancer was somehow seen as a “nobler” cancer than other cancers. This is because women have channelled their energies into fundraising to fight this cancer that they might’ve used for any women’s issue. Women’s rightful anger at sexism has been diverted into fighting this horrible disease, but breast cancer is no more horrible than any other cancer.
But nobody is in favor of cancer. That makes it a safe cause.

Wait…what? How is breast cancer an example of a disguised women’s issue? Doesn’t the fact that people are disproportionately giving money to fighting breast cancer (which is touted as a women’s issue) as opposed to other forms of cancer which affect everyone mean that people are trying to go out of their way to help women?

[Two_Many_Cats]

Hoo boy, do I wish I wasn’t at work.

Look, be patient. I’ll try to explain myself more when I get home.

[Frank]

@Chessic_Sense

There’s a very short list of topics that count as true “women’s issues”, and they all involve your body parts.

Some years ago, I read a short story by Connie Willis in the introduction for which she mentioned that she’d been getting flak for not writing about women’s issues. She closed the introduction by saying, “Here’s a story about the women’s issue. I hope they’re happy.”

The story was centered on menstruation.

[Pazu]

@Frank

Some years ago, I read a short story by Connie Willis in the introduction for which she mentioned that she’d been getting flak for not writing about women’s issues. She closed the introduction by saying, “Here’s a story about the women’s issue. I hope they’re happy.”

The story was centered on menstruation.

That would be “Even the Queen”, right?

[Frank]

@Pazu

That would be “Even the Queen”, right?

Yes, it would. It won a Hugo award.

[Two_Many_Cats]

Okay, I’m home.

Okay, bear with me here. What I am trying to say by all this is complicated. I have by no means figured it out myself. I am going to avoid using the quote function, because I am not a computer wizard and there are multiple quotes involved here, and I don’t want to lose this post because I didn’t hit the right button right after a crapload of typing.

First, I will explain what I mean by “Feminism is admirable only if it doesn’t focus on women.”
I admit when I typed it I meant it sarcastically. How could feminism by its very name not focus on women? But as I gave it more thought, I realized how much more admirable a concept feminism would be if it did address the inequities which exist for both genders, not just the injustices borne by women, but the injustices borne by men. In other words, Frank was correct.

Now, I had been mulling over an issue which has been sticking in my craw for some time. Lisa Madigan’s mid-sentence flub brought it to my mind once again. Why is it that women today will bend over backwards to dress up what is obviously a women’s problem as anything but a woman’s problem? Why do we need to trot out breast cancer as the problem, when every cancer is a worthy cause to fight? Why did Lisa Madigan feel it was necessary to trot out protecting children when speaking of rape?

There is an answer. But first, let me address the murder question. I said that society finds it more acceptable for a man to be murdered than a woman. Murder itself is of course always unacceptable, but if a murder victim is a man, it is typically less of a big deal than if the victim is a woman. Why is this?

The answer to both questions is sexism. Against men. Against women.

The key is the deeply held cultural beliefs that our society still holds after all this struggle.

Here are the main ones connected to these questions:

Men are strong. Men will fight to protect. Men will fight to conquer and advance. Men will fight because they enjoy it. Therefore, men who are not strong or do not like to fight are less than men.

Sexist? You bet. And it leaves plenty of murder victims lying around.

Women are not strong. Women are weaker than men. Therefore women are less than men.
Therefore women need to be protected by men.

Sexist? You bet.

The questioning of deeply held beliefs always raises anxiety. Anxiety leads to anger. Anger leads to scorn and derision, where simple violence is not possible. If you can’t pound the person doing the questioning of these deeply held beliefs into submission, simple ridicule and badgering may make the questioning one fall into line.

So, why are women’s issues being balkanized into issues of health, crime, domestic violence, economics, child care, abortion rights, and so on? Is it simple vagueness that they are trying to avoid? In part, perhaps. It’s good to have something concrete to bounce ideas off of, and people like solving problems, especially men…oops, sexism?

But it is also done in order to avoid the anger, scorn, and derision that are heaped upon those who dare to question the cultural beliefs.

And one of those beliefs are that women are less than men. Because men are stronger. Okay, that’s two beliefs.

Remember, beliefs are not facts. They are only theories.

After all, that’s what we’re always telling the Christian nutjobs.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I’m sorry but it is indeed a fact that men, on average, have more physical strength than women.

[Two_Many_Cats]

@Bryan_Ekers

I’m sorry but it is indeed a fact that men, on average, have more physical strength than women.

But are women less than men as a consequence of that fact?

Are you sure?

Are you culturally sure?

Will you allow a woman, or indeed a man, to question that belief?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Two_Many_Cats

But are women less than men as a consequence of that fact?

Well, at powerlifting, to be sure.

Are you sure?

Are you culturally sure?

Will you allow a woman, or indeed a man, to question that belief?

“Allow”? I don’t have the ability to stop anyone from questioning anything they want. And that’s without conceding your “less than” leap, which is something you’re assuming I believe, with no input from me needed or apparently wanted.

And what does “culturally sure” mean?

[coffeecat]

@Two_Many_Cats

But are women less than men as a consequence of that fact?

I really think the only ones here who think women are intrinsically lesser beings are the cats, and that’s not because they’re sexist; they think that about everybody.

[Two_Many_Cats]

@Bryan_Ekers

“Allow”? I don’t have the ability to stop anyone from questioning anything they want. And that’s without conceding your “less than” leap, which is something you’re assuming I believe, with no input from me needed or apparently wanted.

And what does “culturally sure” mean?

See, this is where the complexity sets in.

Do you automatically get annoyed if a woman complains that something is unfair to her because of her gender? Do you immediately respond with skepticism? Do you look for ways her argument is flawed? Do you assume that she’s wrong? Are you waiting to pounce on those tired, feminist lies that you are certain are to follow?

Do you react this way, before she even finishes what she has to say?

Yes, you know sexism against a person’s gender is wrong. You “know” that. Everybody “knows” that.

But deep, deep down, does it upset you to “know” that?

Deep, deep down, do you wish you could believe women are less than men?

Deep, deep down, do you wish women would believe they are less than men, and just accept that?

Do you wish women would just be satisfied with the progress that they have already made? Do you wish that they would just shut up? Do you dislike the anger that they feel at the injustices they face?

More importantly still, do you wish that they would think about the injustices you have to face about your own gender? Do you wish that just once they could think about how difficult it is to be a man?

I could go on. I said it was complicated. I haven’t even asked you to consider what you think about a man who cries too often or is afraid of too many things, who doesn’t like sports, or is just a little…too much like a woman.

Only you know the answers to the questions I’ve asked. But please, think carefully about them. And be honest.