Drat. My 400th post has been relegated to citing definitions.
Poor form on my part, eh?
Which makes it different, the fact that it’s a social group or the fact that you don’t worship together?
It’s annoying, but if their beliefs mandate that they should be proselytizing, then by gum, they should do it at all times. If they do not, they have to bear the weight of not caring about your soul on their shoulders. From their perspective, it’s more courteous to proselytize you when you’re doing other things than to put it off and lose an opportunity to rescue your soul from hell.
That’s just going to happen. Not everyone is going to accept Paganism.
minty -
are you so DAMNED certain of your religion that you think you have a right to harangue others who do not share your beliefs?
Being stopped on the street and lectured to about how I’m going to go to hell is most certainly what I would consider harassment (and, I’d be hoping that the asshole would make “hostile” physical contact. hoping and praying to every god I’ve ever heard of)
-or-
it’s OK for Christians to harass non-believers, but not OK for Krishnas to do so?
compare and contrast, in light of the First Amendment.
Would we like to play word substitution?
How about replacing “Paganism” with:
Protestantism?
Judaism?
Blacks?
Irish?
Lawyers, and other bigots?
Unfortunately, Minty, if I were to be an asshole about things like you suggest me to be, then I would be setting a bad example for people who don’t know much about Pagans and would assume that one=the whole group. So, I tend to be nice about it, but mention time constraints when I need to.
Soup_du_jour, I hear the word “witnessing” and I think it being a little more closely related to the word “prosletyzing.” I just don’t like the word in general. I didn’t mean to make it sound like it was a bad thing in general; I just don’t like the term applied to me.
Lel, we are different because of both reasons.
MIS, this is a message board, so I don’t know a thing about your appearance. All I’ve got to go on here is your written words. So when you say somebody started talking to you about his religion because he recognized you from your table, I’m going to take your word for that.
Similarly, I’m going to take you at your word in the OP that you voluntarily participated in “a nice conversation about our beliefs over the period of an hour, if not more.” And then that somehow gets turned into a complaint about how it took you away from your other activities? Come on now. Next time, try the following phrase: “I’m sorry, but I don’t have time to discuss this right now. I have to finish quilting these blankets for starving orphans.” If you choose to particpate in such a discussion, the person you can legitimately complain about is youself–not the person who invited you to discuss your faith.
I guess I didn’t make myself clear: I wasn’t specifically complaining about that incident. I used that as an example of when I don’t entirely mind. I do mind in the situations where I am being prosletyzed in an inapropriate manner [i.e. refusal of my privacy when I tell them I don’t have time to discuss it any further] or they come up to me repeatedly when I’ve told them in the same situation that I don’t have time to discuss it. My schedule doesn’t change that much from week to week, so when I don’t have time for something on the same occasion 3 weeks in a row, I hope that they understand that I’m not going to want to stop and waste my valuable time talking about it the 4th week.
Unfortunately, Minty, we can’t all be such stellar human beings as you. :rolleyes:
Since when is it bad to proselytize? If I believe that everyone’s going to go to hell unless they accept my religion, I should be proselytizing and witnessing. Some people are more gifted at proselytizing and others at witnessing, but if my belief is that mortal souls are in danger, I should be spreading my belief by whatever means are effective. Proselytizing may be effective for some, witnessing for others. Neither may be effective. At least they have tried.
Cross the street. Duck into the nearest store. Tell the annoying person that you have your own beliefs. As much as you should be doing the above things, so should they be lecturing you about God, if they are wanting to show love.
It’s perfectly fine for Krishnas to do so, and if their religion states that they should convert others, then they should do so.
happyheathen, I’m speaking of religious beliefs when I say that. If everyone were going to go and accept one specific religion, there would not be multiple religions. People will join those religions which they believe to be closest to their concept of truth, and some of those people are then going to join religions such as that brand of Christianity which mandates that they accept only their own religion and proselytize others. How will we then get those people to accept other religions as having validity?
(slight sidetrack) MIS, how is it different that your religious group is also a social group? Aren’t most religious organizations on campus devoted not only to their religion, but also to fostering social congregation among students?
What fucking harranguing, HH? The OP described nothing resembling harranguing, or harrasment, or indeed anything other than perfectly polite discussion of each party’s religious faith. I already pointed that out to you once. Try not to fabricate any other facts and attribute them to me, okay?
It works on the proselytizing fundamentalists, maybe it’ll work on you: Fuck off.
Fair enough. So why didn’t you mention any such incidents in your OP?
Never claimed to be. I’m simply pointing out that your own conception or religious tolerance–as expressed in the OP–is rather less than tolerant.
Unfortunately, minty, that’s just not fair. Let’s say that there was a group for atheists on campus, and someone manned a table there. This Christian guy Joe walked by, and saw the person manning the table (let’s call him Bob).
Now, let’s say a couple of days later, Bob is working as cashier in the campus bookstore. Joe sees Bob, remembers that he was at the atheist table at the activity fair or whatever, and decides to try to start up a religious debate?
First of all, Bob’s working. Bob is busy doing something that isn’t in any way related to his religion. I believe that the OP was doing something for (his/her) decidedly non-religious academic fraternity at the time. That, like it or not, is an obligation, much as working is an obligation. An unsolicited relgious debate, fun as it might be, is just a skosh annoying, because (s)he is supposed to be doing something else.
The fact that someone advertises their religion–mainstream or not–does not mean that they want to talk about it 24/7. I’m a breed of pagan myself, and I wear a celtic-ized pentagram pretty much all of the time. It’s a symbol of my faith. It tells people that I’m pagan. It should not, however, indicate that I am open for religious debate whenever and wherever someone would approach me.
This, however, is not how most people interpret this. I’ve been asked several times by complete strangers–some of whom I’ve said nothing more to than “Thank you” or “Are you setting up here tomorrow”–to explain and express my religious beliefs. Now, I’m a pretty nice, laid-back person, so I usually try to explain as best I can. But, fuck, when I’m trying to get my ass to my next class, or when I’m working service events for APO, or when I’m paying for my lunch, such things can get a tad annoying.
Additionally, minty, it is not always advisable or even frickin’ polite to tell these people to “fuck off.” Some people–like me–do not say that phrase except when severely and personally ticked off, and even then only sparingly. Saying it to some random person is pretty much inconceivable for me, and for many others. Even saying “I’m kind of busy right now” isn’t fully effective. I mean, if I have to say that, I’ve already been stopped, I’ve already been put in an awkward position, and I’ve already had some of my time taken away. That shouldn’t be the case.
I guess the OP put it best:
Basically, if my faith is germaine to the topic at hand, if I’ve already told you my faith and I’m not freaking obviously busy/working, or if I’m working as a representative of my faith, I don’t really mind being pestered. Otherwise, leave me alone–it’s really none of your business.
The US census keeps no official statistics on religion. It hasn’t since 1976 when PL 94-521 (which amended Sec. 13. Section 221 of title 13 of the U.S.C.A.) made it illegal to compel people filling out the survey to disclose their religious beliefs. Got all that? Anyway, any religion written in on a census is entirely voluntary and thus the numbers are highly inaccurate.
So, while there are no hard statistics on it, this site is the closest I can come to a number of Pagans and even it admits the it could be off by hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
But, taking the 1 million number, approximately 99.98333% of the world are NOT neo-pagans.
First off, this thread has had a lot of action. My posts are slow, and may address subjects from previous posts. My apologies for the cellular connection. To add to that, this should have been posted on the first page. It still bears saying however:
That’s college. There was some fire-n-brimstone guy that I used to see every day in 98 (Auburn University). He usually drew a crowd and it was funny for this long-haired neo-hippy to scream through on my bike and chase him off his bench/soapbox occasionally. Aparently I’m going to burn in Hell.
He was in my way to get to Haley Center 
The thing you might be forgetting is all the religous people… and all the credit card people… and all the petition people… and all the “spirit” people, and all the numerous others that pester any and everybody roving through a college campus are doing the same thing. It’s media. Hell, your media when you sit behind a desk and take questions.
In short, think like a duck. All those useless sales pitches, whether religous or commercial, should be like water off a duck.
Damnit, I did it again.
that’s supposed to be “you’re” not “your”.
I blame the Anheiser Busch Corporation.
I’ve never “witnessed”, “tabled”, or otherwise engaged in prostyletizing, nor do I wear obviously Pagan jewelry such as pentacles unless at a majority-Pagan gathering (and frequently not even then). I happen to be married to Bible-reading Christian, so it’s not like the household is exuding “Pagan vibes” or something.
However, I have had prostelytizing Chrisitans wake me up by banging on my front door (and, in one case, my bedroom window) at 5 am to tell me about Jesus. I have had people shoving their literature in my mailbox to the point my mail could not be delivered. I have had Bible tracts stuffed under the windshield wipers of my car (which, by the way, has no religious identifiers of any sort) and under my front door. This has happened in nine different states over a period of 37 years.
This also happens to my husband on a regular basis, a man who, as I have stated, is already a Christian.
I don’t have a problem with folks asking about my religion - they usually get the reply “I prefer not to discuss that in public”. I do have a problem with someone who hears that statement then literally backs me into a corner (and this has happened more than once) and starts hammering away at the salvation message.
I don’t have a problem with folks “spreading the news”. I do have a problem with them disturbing my sleep, abusing my private property, or otherwise obstructing my ability to live my live and perform necessary chores like going to work in the morning.
Frankly I don’t care if X percentage of the country thinks my religion is warmed over crap or not. I don’t hold my beliefs in order gain their approval.
My religion forbids protelytizing because it is seen to be an attempt to impose your will on another against their will… which we define as unethical behavior on par with rape, murder, and theft. I am not exaggerating with that comparison, we really do see it as criminal behavior.
On the other hand, we have no problem with homosexual practices, which other groups view as a reason to put people to death.
Now, living in a predominently Judeo-Christian society I realize I have to tolerate a certain amount of what I see as unethical and immoral behavior because I don’t have the power to change the entire country to my belief system (and even if I had that power, I couldn’t use for ethical reasons), but that doesn’t mean I like it, condone it, or approve of it.
Right… and women and children used to be beaten “for their own good”, and slavery was justified in part as a means to bring Christianity to the heathens.
Hmm… isn’t that one of the justifications used by the likes of the Taliban, Al-Quaeda, and other groups who kill and maim and destroy? We’re right, you’re wrong, therefore we have the right to kill you.
Hey, I am well aware the majority of folks out there are not like this, regardless of religious stripe. But it’s stupid to pretend extremists don’t exist.
So, essentially, you’re saying I don’t have the right to be left alone when I want to be unless I decide to be an asshole about it?
[quote]
Originally posted by Broomstick**
My religion forbids protelytizing because it is seen to be an attempt to impose your will on another against their will… which we define as unethical behavior on par with rape, murder, and theft. I am not exaggerating with that comparison, we really do see it as criminal behavior. **
Thank you for making my point a bit more clear. I do consider it unethical for people to actively try and convert me on multiple occasions when I’ve made it perfectly clear to them that I’m not going to change what I believe in. People don’t seem to realize that I only take offense to it because my personal beliefs dictate that I should have the right to believe what I feel is true without being confronted about it in situations where it’s inapropriate.
Today’s Saturday, so there’s a smaller likelihood of me getting prosletyzed to, and that’s a good thing because of my obligations today. I’m doing a campus cleanup for my criminal justice fraternity, and I’d rather not be bothered when I’m doing community service that I feel is important to do. Either way, if I do, I’ll probably tell them that it’s completely inapropriate to keep me from my work when it’s obvious that I’m busy doing something that I feel is important.
-indigo
Precisely so. My arguments on the last page were made precisely because the OP complained about other people talking to her about religion without even attempting to make the contextual distinctions you just identified.
Nothing to add, just wanted to highlight the wisdom of those remarks.
Can someone fix the tags in that last post please? [it’s a bit early and I accidentally forgot to press the “preview” button.