I am Pagan.

The BBQ Pit
1

This one sentence sums up my frustration at the moment. ***I am Pagan. *** This one sentence, this one little piece of knowledge in the hands of others means that I have to defend my right to believe what I know in my own heart to be true. I don’t force my beliefs on anyone, and I don’t infringe on the right of others to believe what they feel is true.

I’m a student at FSU, and I am a member of the Pagan Student Association there. On Wednesdays, I sit at a table representing the group and I am there for people to ask questions about the purpose of the group, any beliefs attached to the umbrella term “Pagan,” and to welcome anyone who is interested in coming to our meetings. I take every question I get seriously at that table because I understand how misunderstood the term is in this society, especially when applied to people referring to their belief system. I don’t mind getting into discussions when I’m representing the Pagan community through PSA events or tabling.

What really bothers me is that people decide they need to convert me when I’m not doing anything related to PSA at all. I am a pledge for a criminal justice fraternity on campus [it’s coed and I’m female, just in case you were curious], and we had a bake sale last Thursday. Well, a Christian organization was advertising their belief system and also their worship services nearby. One of the guys who was representing them came up to me because he recognized me from tabling, so we had a nice conversation about our beliefs over the period of an hour, if not more. This entailed me to go get my bible [for my religion class; it’s the oxford annotated bible with apocrypha. I’d suggest it to anyone who needs a text that explains things in a scholarly but down-to-earth manner.] from my dorm room and discuss the existence of people other than the line of Abraham on the face of the planet. Well, I certainly didn’t mind this because he wasn’t denying my right to believe what I did [for the most part, but it’s understandable when you’re talking to someone of a faith whose MO is that they’re “the only way”…], but I don’t appreciate being called away from my obligations to have a theological debate. It’s draining and counterproductive.

Ok, down to the main part of my rant: I hate the fact that I can’t be Pagan and not have my beliefs called into question as valid almost every single day of the week. I don’t question the beliefs of other people’s religions, and I personally don’t like my beliefs being attacked because I’m different and there’s less people who openly believe what I do. Pagans don’t prosletyze because it goes against the tenet that we practice religious tolerance. I don’t mind people asking me more about my faith, and I certainly don’t get offended when people ask me to come to one of their worship services to see what it’s like [well, more like to try to sway me back to Christianity], but personally, I don’t know if I’ll ever go out to a service from every church that’s ever asked me to come see what they’re like… and I don’t hold their religious views against them.

My avoidance of experiencing my religious views being called into question is to the extent that I NEVER wear any obvious symbols of my faith, unless you count me sitting at the representative table itself. I don’t mind tabling because I see it serving a good purpose, but I do see a problem with people actively trying to convert me wherever I go. This is why I avoid the Mormons who are prosletyzing on campus; it’s also why I tell the people who hand out copies of the New Testament on campus that I already have a bible. I don’t want to have my faith called into question more often than I have to.

Every major religion on the face of this planet was once as small and misunderstood as mine is. People don’t seem to realize that. I also find it funny that the people who question my faith the most are the people who fervently believe in theirs but miss details in their faith that is important to accepting the whole sacred text. I’ve never once had a Muslim student question my faith, and the representatives of Eastern religions haven’t questioned my right to believe what I feel in my heart is true; it’s only been the more fervent and narrowminded of the Christian sects that has decided my beliefs are invalid. Some days I just want to be left alone, and the people who confront me because they don’t know enough about my views on life and how things work don’t give me that chance. **It’s like I have to prove that I’m a decent person before I can prove that the people who share my beliefs have a right to exist. **It’s not fair, and it’s not right, but I have to live with it because there are too many people out there who are convinced that I have no right to be on the face of this planet with the beliefs I hold.

At least they’ve decided it’s wrong to hunt us down and kill us for our beliefs… but the media doesn’t help either: they make it worse and they make it harder for every Pagan who truly represents their religion to go out and be open with the fact that they believe something different. What’s even worse is that some people buy into the beliefs that misrepresent us and decide from the little information that they have that they want to be “Pagan” too. Unfortunately that means there’s a bunch of “fluffy bunny Pagans” wandering around thinking that spells and being Pagan or a Witch is all about getting what you want… spells are just another form of praise and worship of the earth and the Creative Power for us. We use spells in the same way that we use prayer: to thank the Creative Power for what we have, and to ask for what we need to become a better person overall.

Next time you see something in the media that uses the idea of the stereotypical witch [i.e. Charmed or The Craft], think about how many people actually think that’s real, and how many people use it against people whose beliefs have nothing to do with what’s represented, but are lumped in the same category by others.

Blessed be.
religioustolerance.org

2

I think I did my part today. I was talking for a bit with someone today who believes you should read the Bible and not question it, because to do that is to ponder the mysteries of our time, or something, and that’s just confusing.

Later contradicted himself, but anyway. He was talking about things that went against Christianity (evolution, etc) and mentioned witches.

“Ah. Wicca. Yeah, 99% of those people are good witches, and the other one percent generally don’t understand what they’re doing”.

Not so much what you’re about, but since so many Christians confuse Wicca with Paganism (and Satanism and all that sort of thing), I figured there was a healthy shot he lumped “all those heathens” into one big heathen pot.

3

Being an atheist isn’t much better. I know how you feel, and I wish I had something I could tell you that would help get them off your back.

The only thing I’ve found 100% effective against someone that just won’t take a hint, is walking away.

4

I’m not sure if you worship with a group, but if you do, the next time someone invites you to church, insist that they come to one of your worship services first. You’ll find that you spend less time at church this way.

5

I’m a solitary, and unfortunately I don’t have any room to do anything but a makeshift excuse for an altar in my room: I’ve dedicated one wall to images that represent the god and goddess to me. If I was part of a group, I’d welcome the people who invite me to come to one of our rituals to see what it’s like, ultrafilter… the only tricky part is that’s sometimes just asking for trouble for the rest of the group. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.

Jinwicked, I understand your point, I just personally don’t walk away as soon as they ask because it sets a bad example for Pagans and Wiccans in general for the person asking. I appreciate the support though. I just needed this thread to get the issue off my chest a bit more clearly than me just talking. I tend to screw things up when it comes out of my mouth and not from my hand onto paper.

6

Oh well. You do have sympathetic ears in the Pagan Student Association, yes? Use them. It’s very likely that your friends have the same experiences, and the support you can get from them is significantly greater than what we can offer. Until then, be strong, and remember, no matter how bad they make you feel, no one can take away your knowledge that you know what you believe is true. I also admire your courage, for sitting out at a table every week and answering questions. You’re doing good; keep it up.

7

Thank God for you, Mirror. As a moderate Christian I must say that I have met a lot of “pagans” whose beliefs were based more on a social fad than actual self examination. People who are Wiccan because they thought Willow from buffy the Vampire Slayer is realy cool. You, however, are obviously not that type. You’ve thought. I love that.

At any rate, I’ll tell you what I know. Not all knowledge is emperical. Some is a matter of, for lack of a better word, faith. You may not believe in the same Power I do, but we travel the same path.

8

Are you one of those goat people from the movie version of Dragnet that sacrificed the virgin Connie Swails to the python?

9

Is worm food a path? Sorry, just felt the need to do a little atheist proselytizin’.

As for the OP: You have adopted beliefs that are well outside the mainstream of the society in which you live. What’s more, you have openly advertised those beliefs, and sought to spread those beliefs to others through their public advocacy.

Now stop fucking whining that other people try to persuade you to adopt their beliefs, and learn to live with the fact that nobody is happy about how the media portrays their religion.

10

You know, I’ve got an interesting theory involving the Creative Power and all the gods of every religion, but I don’t think this is the apropriate place to get into that. [Don’t worry, it’s quite simple, but some people find it to be odd and/or “breaking the rules” of their faith… like I didn’t do that already by not being of their faith. :rolleyes:]

RexDart, I needed the laugh. Thanks.

And Minty Green, I understand your point, OK? You do realize that this is a rant: the whole point of this was to get my thoughts off my chest and let go of some of the frustration. If I didn’t do this periodically, I’d be an asshole on a regular basis, letting out the little bits of anger out on any passerby. :wink: That wouldn’t be good either, now would it? How exactly have I sought to spread my beliefs by tabling? The purpose of the table is not to prosletyze at all; if it were, we’d be going against our own principles. Have a nice day.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” –Voltaire

11

Then lose the table and the public declarations of pagan-ness. I bet you won’t get preached at very much at all if you didn’t make it such a big deal in the first place. And hey, if proselytizing is against your beliefs anyway, what’s the point of setting up the table and announcing your presence anyway? “Hey guys, we’re pagans! Come ask us questions, read our pamphlets, and join our club! But we’re not trying to spread our belief system or anything.” Come on.

I’m honestly not trying to condemn you here or anything, but there is a certain level of hypocricy to your OP that I just couldn’t let pass. If you’re going to ask for religious tolerance for yourself, you’ve got to return that tolerance when somebody else when they tell you about their religion–even if it’s a lot of somebodies who tell you about it.

12

Your welcome, MIS :slight_smile:

BTW, I think I heard recently that your Voltaire quote is misattributed, that somebody else said that. Not to nitpick, it’s a good quote.

Ok, prepare to resume learning in 5…4…3…2…1…

13

So, let’s see, Minty Green: you’re assuming that I am offended by the fact that they want to tell me about their religion. That’s not the point I’m trying to make. Secondly, we have the table open because the university and also we as a group have every right to be there. We have the organization as a means for some people who have nobody in their immediate vicinity who is Pagan or Wicca and wouldn’t know there were any others on campus otherwise. I think it’s fine for anyone to believe whatever they want, but I draw the line at them personally deciding my beliefs are invalid and shouldn’t be considered a religion because they are different.

14

I have a question. What kind of pagan are you? “Pagan” is pretty vague. What do you believe in? Is it more Wiccan, or more Greek/Roman based? For all I know you believe that the Valkyries will swep you up just before Ragnorak. Mirror, what do you believe as far as the preternatural?

15

Those are honest questions. It may have come off more confrontational than I intended. My apologies. Please do not equate brevity with a confrontational attitude.

16

I’m not assuming much at all. Rather, I read your OP, where you dedicated a considerable number of words to whining about how miserable it is to have other people tell you about their religion just because you’re the public face of pagan-ness at FSU. To which I respond, grow up.

Of course you do. And just as obviously, you don’t have to set up a table at all. But you choose to do so, and as a result, you inform a lot of people with religious beliefs of their own that your beliefs depart quite substantially from theirs. As a result, you get other people telling you about their own religion and why it’s so nifty. Deal with it.

99.95% of the country personally believes that your religion is crap. Learn to live with that fact, or at least stop whining about it.

17

I know how you feel, I’m catholic too.
:smiley:

Okay, okay, it was a Jack Chick joke! Quit throwing things at me!

18

Well, Beeblebrox [btw, love the Douglas Adams reference], I’m an ecclectic Pagan… this essentially means I don’t have one specific path that I follow exactly. I take principles of faith from different areas, mostly Norse and Eastern religions [Yes, many people of these faiths would probably pronounce it as blasphemy, but at this point, I’m not concerned with it because they are ideas that I had before I had a label for them], and they are the principles of how I live my life and how I think things work. As far as the preternatural, I believe that every god or goddess of every religion is just a different aspect of the unified Creative Power… yes, this does include Jesus and beings like the Bodhisattvas and all the incarnations of Krishna. It’s a bit befuddling for some, especially if they have a hard time grasping the concept of the Creative Power being both male and female. [Fellow students in my religion class are a good example at times… it’s funny and scary at the same time.]

19

Minty, chill. We have both seen far worse. Cut her some slack. The first sentence of the OP established that the OP was written in a frustrated state of mind. Have you ever said anything that you didn’t mean exactly? Of course you have. We all have. She vented and that’s what’s this place is for.

Also, your “99.95%” figure is bullshit. For one thing, it doesn’t include this Christian.

20

It always amazes me how people presume that being available to ask questions is the same thing as proselytizing. I don’t just get this for my religion, but for a number of other aspects of myself in which I’m in some minority or other.

Apparently, in some people’s minds, the only reason to be noticeable as a minority is to try to convert people to being that minority. The idea of refusing to be invisible (and thus ignorable) or wanting to speak up against false propaganda doesn’t seem to cross some people’s minds. The idea of being willing to share such things with the honestly curious, likewise.

Minty Green, I do “deal with” that sort of bigotry. I don’t tolerate it. “That’s what you get for being a member of a minority” is not an acceptable attitude to me, and is precisely the sort of reason that tables such as the one Mirrored Indigo Shadows was talking about seem to me to be vitally important. They’re grounded in the real world where various minorities are ignored or considered irrelevant at best, and targeted for abuse or harm at worst, and are the front line in combating the ignorance that makes that prejudice possible.