I Am Second.com = Creationist Agenda

Great Debates
1

Okay, Dopers, I am totally peeved.

I’m sure most of you know by now I’m not a believer in anything supernatural.
That said, a facebook friend posted she joined I Am Second.

At first this site doesn’t look bad at all. There are real people, videotaped
and edited in high quality who tell personal stories of strife. They found God, Jesus
and meaning.

Hold on, I am NOT offended by this aspect. If people feel they need belief, a savior, a god, etc., fine. They say in the contact us section "we are available 24/7 to discuss how Christ can be first in your life. But this site doesn’t mention ministries, creationism, and a general intolerance of other religions.

So I call the 800 number (800-633-3446) and the lady answers with, “Need Him ministries.” I said I was trying to contact I Am Second, and they said the site is part of their ministry. I was transferred to Ann who begins to spout off questions from a list
upon telling her I don’t believe in what she does. I am lectured that the Earth isn’t really that old and that they support Creationism being taught in public schools.
She hinted that evolution should not be taught. (!)

We continue for about 20 minutes. I am saying that my only reason for contacting her
is to change her site to show it is a creationist site. “If you are truly a follower of Christ, you wouldn’t have a hidden agenda. You are using heart-felt stories of belief
to support a hidden agenda.”

She hung up.

So, non-believers, how can we legally stop hidden religious agendas online legally?

Believers, does this offend you? And please state whether or not you think
Creationism is real. When I believed, I would be extremely offended to find out
that someone used my beliefs to fabricate their own agenda. Wouldn’t this make a savior a little peeved?

2

Censorship is a bigger evil than anything these people can do. What you need to do is whatever you can to expose their agenda. Be aware that most of the people who most need to hear it are already non receptive.

3

Agreed on all. I hate censorship too, but by censoring themselves
they hide their Agenda.

One thing I didn’t post in my OP were many things we’ve discussed here.
Ann said, “You either believe in a creator or believe in Evolution.”
Dopers already know you don’t believe in Evolution, you SEE it.

She also asked me how could I watch a sunrise or sunset and not think
a divine creator is behind it?" I tried to explain rotation of the Earth, light refraction,
and she cut me off.

I asked what she thought of sharing Heaven with Kevorkian, abortionist doctors, Mengele, etc., and that’s where the hang up came.

But the legalities of this is frightening, because, as I’m sure I’m going to find out from others, it IS legal. Hell, (pun intended) it’s legal to post online how to get rid of a corpse in your bathtub. Eeep.

4

They seem to be experts at sucking on the tit of government:

http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=20895

What with all the tax money involved, this bit irritates me a lot:

5

Get yourself a Sandwich Board and stand out in front of their offices ranting at whoever passes by. It helps if you avoid shaving for at least 8 months.

6

Nice info and link. Thank You!
With that kind of cash, I’m sure the video participants are paid.
Can we find that out too?

7

Yes. Wearing nothing under it but flip flops.

8

Exactly!

9

You could always go out there and as obnoxiously as possible ask people if they’ve heard the good word about Jesus. Make sure you are incredibly irritating, get as much attention as possible, and then get the press down there when they try to toss you out. :wink:

10

This is very good so far, and I’m still waiting on believers
(Kanicbird… ) because as I said, if I believed I would feel very insulted
that my love/respect for Jesus was insulted, even violated as a ruse for
a different interest.

11

I’m friends with one of the gals in the video. She was a volunteer for them for a while, though I think she is now a paid staff member.

12

It’s not entirely clear to me from the OP, but am I right in thinking that you knew before you rang these people that they espoused creationism, and that your purpose in calling was to take issue with that?

If so, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Creationism deserves to be challenged.

But I’m bothered by the assumption that the website was a “front” for a creationist agenda. The fact that these people believe in kooky ideas like creationism doesn’t mean that they have no other views or thoughts. In their view, the presentation of personal testimonies about the powerful effects of relationships with Jesus Christ may be wholly justified and worthy, in and of themselves as a testimony about the reality and power of Jesus.

Most religious movements have a very wide-ranging theology; fundamentalist literalist Christians are no exception. Any religious movement that uses personal testimonies as an attempt to engage people’s interest (or, for that matter, any non-religious movement which does so) is naturally going to present its views to those whose interests are engaged.

In asking “how can we legally stop hidden religious agendas online legally”, you’re coming perilously close to saying that people who believe in creationism are not allowed to talk about anything else, and are being dishonest if they do. I can’t figure that.

13

No, no, no. I apologize if I sounded one-sided in my OP, but please, as I stated,
(maybe not clearly, again, apologies) I was not under any impression until I called their toll free number. When a different organization answered, yes, I was suspicious,
and “new faith” was said. I still didn’t expect creationism until their rep transferred me to Ann. (You out there? I invited you to this…) Our uncoordinated debate happened, I tried emailing back, no evail.

Your points should be well noted though: don’t jump to conclusions,
or maybe, just not lest he be judged. Both are valid, so are more of that type.

14

Are you interested in hearing from a devout Christian who does accept evolution? Almost all of the Christians I know in real life, including the ones I’ll be eating pancakes with tonight, accept evolution. Some of us have a hard time understanding why someone would say we can only accept evolution or believe in God.

If you want my exact position, I believe that God created the life as we know it by some means, which, based on currently available knowledge, is likely to have included evolution. If evidence comes up for another method, I don’t have a problem with that. To me, God merely willing the world into being is far too simple and far less awe-inspiring that the idea that He set things in motion in such a way that things would wind up as they are. The physics, the biology, and the chemistry behind current theories are wonderful. To me, it’s like trying to solve a magnificent puzzle. If you want another metaphor, it’s the difference between a store-bought sweater, which just appeared on the shelves, ready to wear, and a hand-knit one, in which every stitch is an act of creation, and, if you will, Divine will.

As for appreciating a sunset, I do have some knowledge of the physics behind it, and the physical properties of light are fascinating. That basic knowledge of science enhances my wonder, awe, and appreciation of its beauty.

I’m a programmer and the daughter, sister, and wife of engineers. I am curious about the way things work and the way they’re put together, and for me, learning about how something’s put together usually makes it even more interesting, rather than less. It’s the same with God and science. What I learned about evolution, plate tectonics, and the Big Bang theory as a child and in the years since hasn’t diminished my faith but rather increased the joy and wonder I feel at what a really cool, marvelous world we live in.

If you really want to annoy these people, you could even tell them I wish I could share my joy in God’s creation with them. :wink:

15

I’m not seeing the problem here, unless it’s a tax-dollar problem, which would need more evidence.

There’s a fundy group out there doing missionary work. So it goes. They have sevearl operations, one of which is an online operation, and they give names to the different operations. No problem.

They believe a lot of typical fundy things. One of those is a belief in young-earth creationism. Sigh, annoying, but no problem.

Where’s the deception? Where’s the harm? They might be zealous kooks, but they’re not hurting anyone.

16

I am confused about the Gov’t Grants part lumped in with the Non-Cash Donations, unless they also have some sort of Social Services ministry which gets aid under the Faith-Based program.

That said, a person who calls the number to discuss Christ shouldn’t be badgered about Young-Earthism, which isn’t even a common teaching among Fund’ists. I’m a Day/Age Old Earther, sometimes Theistic Evolutionist (I do believe in a roughly 6000 Adamic humanity). My Fund’ist background included lots of Day/Age Old Earthers, Re-creation Old Earthers & Young Earthers.

Oh, but if a ministry espouses putting Jesus first, that doesn’t leave room for Mohammed, Buddha, Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, Cernunnos & Aradia, etc. up there at the top.

17

Alas, as some anti-Christianity Evolutionist Dopers have brought up, there are the ideas that “If humans evolved, there was no Adam & no Original Sin, and thus we don’t have any need for Christ” AND “If the Bible is incorrect about Origins, then how can you trust what it says about Salvation?” These attacks from outside the Faith and the same concerns from within does lead many Fund’ists to take a hard line on Young Earthism.

18

Their mission statement seems to deny this possibility:

19

This:

Does not jive with this:

or even this

It sounds to me that you were rather confrontational when you called.

Besides, I wouldn’t call it a hidden agenda. If the agenda is no where to be found on the website, maybe the simple answer is that it’s not an agenda for the website.

20

And yet there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone set anything in to motion at any time, much less that all of biology, chemistry, physics and cosmology were designed at all. If they were designed, surely there would be evidence of that. And there would be a bigger problem, since it if it is unlikely that all of this happened by chance, then it is even more unlikely that a being capable of designing it all happened by chance.

Or are you going with the ‘turtles all the way down’ hypothesis?

I really don’t understand how it is possible to learn about things like evolution, plate tectonics, cosmology, physics, and everything else that science and mathematics have to offer and still believe that there is a supernatural omnipotent omniscient being in charge of it all. How do you look at all of that and then think that Christianity has it right? If it really was written by this all-knowing god thing, why is there no indication that the author of the book knew anything about parts of the world that could not be accessed by a bunch of nomadic desert people who had never seen or experienced anything that wasn’t within walking distance?

How do human remains that are older than 6000 years fit into your ‘Adamic humanity’ viewpoint? If your belief is that humans were created ex nihilo 6000 years ago and have evolved since then into what we are now, then you don’t understand evolution and are squarely a creationist. Nothing that you say here squares with the theory of evolution as biology understands it.

How is it that you call yourself ‘evolutionist’?

Dawkins would probably agree that the only real way to continue believing in religion in the face of scientific evidence that it is false is to become so hardened and fundamentalist that you can trick yourself into ignoring the facts.

Also, I’m anti-religion. That means all of them, and it includes yours.