I am so fucking sick of this casual racism

The BBQ Pit
221

Really? Biggest ever? I didn’t even know I’d been nominated!

I don’t recall saying that, nor thinking it, but don’t let that stop you. Consider me your little white scapegoat. Tape as many frowny faces to my hair as you like—meanwhile I’ll just be nibbling the label off this tin can.

Incidentally, since you appear to too dim to realize it, my “ching chong” comment was an ironic reference to Rosie O’Donnell’s statement that caused a minor uproar. It’s become increasingly apparent that your conflict with others is probably not primarily related to race, but rather derives from your being a humorless dipshit.

222

This is the only part of the OP I’m really concerned with. The bigger “Race in America” issue will have to be resolved without me, but I you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I’ve been to jail. It wasn’t as bad as, say, any day in junior high, and, having gone for doing something I felt was in the right (which was proved out by my being released the next day), it wasn’t an experience I’d suggest someone avoid at the expense of their convictions.

I posited to the OP that he’d not taken the violent response out of the greater conviction of Pacifism, but suggested he examine that possibility against the anger he was venting here. I doubt the “fuck off” response he came back with was a direct quote from Gandhi.

Was it possible that the asshole in the OP was just a jerk using racism, rather than a racist being a jerk, and if the OP was white but had a zit in the middle of his forehead, the asshole would have given him shit for that? Either way, for some assholes, the only way to earn their respect is to put their shit-talking mouths against the floor. I won’t disagree with what you say: “idiot definitely wouldn’t have learned anything” but he might not think being an asshole is as easy and fun as he did before.

And I speak as someone who’s had his ass kicked, and I’ve been stabbed, had dogs sicced on me, and I’ve even been shot at. Some of these times the best course of action was pacifism, other times running like a rabbit, and other times still it was best that I fought back. You just never know. So I aplogise. I shouldn’t have judged the OP’s ultimate choice. I just want him to know he has options, and that he can throw a punch rather than wait around for the human race to improve itself.

Of course, an entierly new option would be to thank these assholes, because I’m not convinced that people really give human injustice a great deal of thought until their own personal oxen are gored. And not even always then.

223

Is that so?

So what do mean by that then? Yeah, I totally misinterpreted that guy’s comment about the VT shooting. My race had nothing to do with it. Racism is all in our heads, right?

Yeah, I don’t follow trash TV so I’m too dim to get your idiotic and poorly timed reference. Actually my primary conflict with you is that you’re a presumptuous piece of shit that needs to watch where he opens his dumbshit mouth about things that he obviously doesn’t have a fucking clue about.

224

Because you’re overwrought and immature and can’t stand to hear anything that contradicts your own opinions. A lot of people suffered monsterously more than you’ll ever know, and you do them an obscene injustice by commandeering their suffering so that you can enjoy having a chip on your shoulder.

225

Yea. It’s turned into the “I’ve got racism all figured out, and if you dont agree with me 100%, it’s because you don’t get it” thread.

The truth is, racism is extremely complicated and you can’t blame it on one cause or one race. Anyone who thinks they have it even partly figured out is dilusional. Minorities can be racisist to other minorities. The oppressed can have illogical hatred toward other oppressed. Sometimes people say things or ask questions out of ignorance. And while it’s not necessarily racist, it gets really freaking old and pretty damned annoying. Hell, I can’t count the times I’ve suprised Koreans because they didn’t realize white people eat rice. Apparantly we eat bread, not rice.
If a person is ignorant, you shouldn’t get pissed off at him for it, no matter how annoying it gets.
If a person says something to intentionally be mean to you or piss you off, that’s a little bit worse, but just fucking ignore it. Dont empower the person by getting sad or angry. Say something back if you want, but then brush it off. It’s no big deal. This is not an attitude that encourages “bullying” or “the passive minority” or whatever ridiculous shit I’ve heard in this thread. It’s just a way for you to live your life without getting worked up and pissed off over stupid simple shit like that. If other people have fucked up views like that, whatever… I pitty them, I dont get pissed at them.
My wife has been forced to tears by wicked comments from Koreans. She’s been called a Western Pricncess, a Banana (yellow on the outside, white on the enside) and countless other bullshit. Why should she let these comments make her cry? Am I creating some passive ideal minority by encouraging her to just ignore it and not give a shit what other people say? How does that factor into your theories?
Now if someone physically harms another person out of spite for their race, or fires them or actually treats them unfairly… well we have laws for that in the US and appropriate action should be taken against those people.

As far as jokes go… sorry, I dont think race is magically “off-limits”. I wouldn’t come in here calling someone a nigger or a chink. Obviously some things are not tasteful in all situations. But shit, half my family is Korean (not Korean-American, but Korean) if some guy starts a pit thread about casual racism toward Asians, well I’m going to casually fuck with him with no apologies. It’s called fucking around and I’m not going to apologize for it. If he wants to make a retalitory comment like he did, that’s fine. I can take it as well. I’d suggest that in the future, if he’s truly pissed about the comment and if his response is intended to be viscious, then he shouldn’t put a smilie next to it. But I’m not going to apologize if he gets all butt-hurt about a funny comment. I thought, as Dopers, we shared some kind of commonality where we can fuck with each other. But if some are just too damn sensitive, then I’ll just avoid them in the future. They’re too fucking uptight for my liking.
Stereotypes exist. They can be exploited for the sake of humor. Getting offended because you’re in ear shot of a race based joke, or maybe a joke about a fat person or a dwarf or whatever, doesn’t make you more enlightened or open minded. It makes you more uptight and sensitive.
So many people bring up race or make a big deal about race all the time. They analyze things and wonder if such and such was racist. I think this is an issue they need to solve within themselves. Why is race such a major factor in their life? Just because someone has suffered racsism, doesn’t mean they need to see everything as a race issue. I think always seeing a persons’ race or nationality is equally as bad as pretending we’re all the same and denying that race exists at all. They’re both too different extremes and neither of them will cure the world of racism. The fact is we’re all different. Our races are different and there are different qualities unique to different races. Though we’re all equal, we’re not all the same. To deny this fact, and act offended when someone acknowledges those differences is insane.

There is some real evil racist ideas and opinions out there. There are without a doubt corrupt individuals in powerful positions or acting as authority figures. And there are assholes just brought up to believe certain things and hate certain people. But I’m not going to pretend Dave Chapelle or Mencia is offensive and act like I’m too good or too enlightened to listen to a racial joke.

I am not trying to deny that anyone has suffered from cruel racists, and I dont think anyone should assume that I haven’t just because I’m white. (Hell, in my middle school, there was a wonderful thing called “Cracker Day” where other kids would rack up points by punching the white kids. This was at least once a month, and I had to walk fearful through the halls… dreading each bell.

To the OP specifically: Much of the things you mentioned can be summed up to ignorance, not racism. Not even casual racism. Sorry that many people dont know enough geography to realize North and South Korea are seperate countries. That doesn’t make them racistis. Not even casual racists. Idiots maybe. Ignorant, sure. I’m sure they’re pretty damn annoying, and that’s enough for its own pit thread, but it doesn’t make them racists. When someone makes a comment that they will “fuck you up”, I would never say–and I haven’t said–that you should stay quiet or passive or just take it. But I dont really think you should get all worked up over some of the other stuff.
Korean culture puts a lot of emphasis on math and on studying. Therefore, Koreans are pretty good at math. If they’re not, they are looked down on by other Koreans. So I am very suprised to learn that a Korean citizen going to school at an American University was poor at math. That doesn’t mean I think his race made him predetermined to be good at math, but I would have expected that he would have been encouraged or even forced to study many, many hours throughout his life. But if people actually believe that your genes should make you better at math… well fuck. That’s pretty lame of them.
And I understand the whole concept of “If I’m good at it, it’s because of my race” and “if I suck at it, then I’m a racial anomoly” that was brought up. I’ll try to pay attention to that one a little bit more, but I’ve never really assumed that anyone thought it was a genetic thing instead of a cultural thing. If someone grows up in the hood, whether they are black or white or hispanic or whatever, I would expect they were decent at basketball. Not because of their race, but because it’s popular there and people play it all the time, so they’re good at it. Since the inner city neighborhoods are predominantly black, I’m guessing they got associated-as a race-with playing basketball.
So the “What do you mean you’re not good at basketball?” question comes up as a little joke… over and over and over again. I’m sure it gets annoying. But is it not the repetitiveness of the statement and just hearing the unorginal joke over and over coming from people who think it was cute or original… isn’t that what pisses you off the most about it? Or do you really think, that they believe black people are better at basketball because of their genetics?
Could that possibly be the most aggravating part about “casual racism”? Not that people actually expect certain things from you because of your race, but because so many people who know better make the same dull-ass annoying jokes. Over and over and over… and it’s no longer funny (if it ever was)?
I dunno. Like I said, anyone who thinks they even have a clue as to what causes racism or how to effectively solve the problem is diluted.

I’m sure this is all TLDR. But this is my fifth time starting to write a post for this thread since it started. I erased the others because I didn’t think they were inciteful enough. I dont think this one is any better, but I should at least stop lurking and making jokes that are pissing everyone off. Though I still think they were funny. Had this been Great Debates and not the pit. Or if I knew this was going to turn in to the Great Race Relations Thread of 2007, I would have not said anything. But damn, I always tell my wife not to throw a ninja star at me whenever she gets peeved. It hasn’t gotten old yet since it makes me laugh every time. (Her too) But like the OP said, we get along famously.

226

I never claimed my experiences are comparable to those that have suffered more. So anyone that complains about anything less than the Holocaust here is doing those victims a grave injustice, right?
If you’re opinion is “your balls needs to re-descend” then I think I have a right to contradict you and tell you to fuck off.
Look, you thought I was being a pussy because I didn’t punch that dumbass and I explained that I wasn’t that angry at him and I had the last word. If the fucker came back and wanted to continue with the ‘argument’ and things escalated, I would not have backed off. I’ve been in enough scuffles (usually thanks to a short tempered friend) to be not afraid to get my hands dirty if I feel it’s warranted. But it wasn’t. He was drunk and if I knocked him out the whole party would’ve turned sour and I would be the asshole responsible.
So please, please go away. If you think I’m fronting because you have a criminal record and I don’t then fine. Maybe I am a pussy compared to you. You win. You’re the bigger badass and I’m a sniveling little pissant. Are we done now?

227

You definitly sound like someone from whom we should be taking advice on conflict management.

228

Bear Nenno, your jokes on their own were not that offensive. But it does look like an attempt to undermine me when such jokes were a part of my complaints.
You’re saying that minorities (or just I) over-analyze incidents and try to interpret things racially when they’re not. I’m sure that happens too but racism is real and a White person in America has the luxury of never having to wonder “did that happen to me because of my race?”
Ignorance is a part of racism and I don’t doubt that there’s a lot of overlap between those two things. Maybe my reaction to those jokes were over the top, but I don’t think they would’ve stopped if it wasn’t. How are we supposed to discuss a topic like like race with a bunch of white people mocking and dismissing what we’ve experienced? I find it rather audacious that so many White people are so certain that the ignorance/racism/whatever “is no big deal” when they haven’t experienced it. Even if we are being oversensitive, White people have absolutely no right to tell us that.
Maybe you’ve experienced racism in school for being White and no one’s going to tell you that that’s cool. I didn’t know that and maybe I would’ve been more receptive to your jokes if I did. In either case, if you shared those stories, I don’t know how many people are going to tell you “that’s what you get for being so pasty, albino” or that you need to get over it. I would think most people would not dismiss your concerns and offer support. I don’t know how many minority dopers would come in and mock and dismiss your experiences without getting banned or something like that.
I’m also surprised by the number of people apologizing to me for it. It tempts me to believe that there is some guilt and others have shown it by dismissing or mocking such concerns. I wasn’t directing my anger at Dopers, but some obviously felt I was and felt the need to ‘retaliate’.
Maybe what I’m usually confronted with are just ignorant or tactless jokes, but they’re jokes I wouldn’t have to hear if I was White. Like I said, you have no idea how grating it is. And I’m fairly certain a lot of times it’s an attempt to “bring me down a notch”, because hey, I’m kinda arrogant in real life too. It’s ammo that everyone has against me, but I don’t against them.
I’m actually not completely sure what you’re getting at, but I hoped I addressed most of the things you mentioned. This came out a bit more rambling than I would’ve liked and probably repeated a lot of things already brought forth by other dopers, but oh well…

229

I’ve been lurking (and have read this entire thread) and haven’t posted because others have made any point I would have better than I would, some more succinctly and some more lengthy.

I hope the OP won’t mind my sharing this story, or think it is too far off-topic.

To those who advocate letting things roll off your back.

I’m black, gay and somewhat of a nerd (meaning not feminine, but not the most masculine, and certainly not the droopy pants, fronts-on-the-teeth-wearing, baseball cap backwards dude). I live in the inner city (Crown heights Brooklyn). Some have figured out I’m gay, some have not.

Over the years, I have struck up friendly, brief conversations in passing with some local, black males who are, shall we say, more “with it” than I am. We see each other, share a brief friendly conversation and move on. If I do stop and there’s anyone else present, I generally give a greeting to everyone there that fits with that crowd – a “what’s up,” or whatever.

I did this once, spent a couple of minutes talking to my acquaintance and started to leave.

As I walked away, I heard one of the guys in the crowd say, “I can’t believe that thing spoke to me.”

Now, granted it was nothing said to me direct or outwardly homophobic. It had to be that because we were all black males.

But you can bet your life I didn’t just let it roll off my back. You see, I strolled away as I normally would have but you can bet I made a note of the face of the person who said it. Because it is people like that who think they can freely make comments like that will lately act upon those feeling and I could end up hurt – or dead.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, there are words that are simply words and there are times that one should just walk away, but sometimes things read fully in their context are what they seem to be, and letting them “roll of your back” just won’t do.

230

Nothing wrong with rambling.
Be assured that I was not trying to undermine you or bring you down. It’s the pit, so we all have to put up with people fucking with us or teasing us about our OP. Your OP just happened to be something you really felt strongly and emotionally about. I didn’t get that from reading your OP. I thought you were just getting out a little needed ranting. You know, like you had a gripe, but that it was specifically one guy who recently pissed you off. Not that it was years of being treated unfairly or made to be an inferior. I didn’t know you we were going to dive into the deep seated darkness that is American racism. I will not defend some of the other comments made to you in the first couple pages, but I’ll defend mine. Maybe I thought we were on a closer level than you did. I knew from earlier posts that you were Korean. You knew, or at least should have known, that my wife and the better half of my family is Korean. On top of that, you’re a Doper. And I consider all Dopers, (even the basement dwelling, parent mooching ones) my friends. I was posting as if commenting to a friend or a brother, and you were reading as if I was a random stranger–which may or may not have been more accurate.

No. I wasn’t really calling you out on that one. I was just thinking that it seems people do that more often than they should. I guess only the individual can know for sure if they’re justified or just paranoid. So they need to look inside themselves and come to an honest conclusion.

But why do you think this? Is it not racist to believe that White people are never the victims of racism? There are people who hate white people too. It’s not difficult to imagine situations where a white person is victimized or even just made to feel uncomfortable because of their race. I think it oversimplifies the problem to assume that white people have not experienced racism and are not qualified to speak about it.
And I’ve seen “white luxary” mentioned at least a couple times in this thread. I’m not sure if the definition of luxary is “doesn’t have to deal with racsim” or if it’s “financial/social class luxary brought forth due to being white”, but I think that it would be inaccurate to say either is a cause of racism. In my experience, it’s the less successful white people who are more likely to be racist. The ones without the benefit of luxary are the ones who seem to be the biggots. Obviously this is not universal. Nothing ever is, especially not when talking about race.

I dont know about that, man. I’ve heard pleanty of it. Anytime I’m in a nonprofessional environment where white is the minority, I’ll hear it. White peole are not exempt. I wont even try to argue that we have it worse or anything like that, but I just want to make it clear that it’s not whites vs the world or whites dont know because they’ve never experienced it. That’s blatanlty false, and starting with such a premiss will prevent you from ever getting to the root of the problem.

When I was a minority in Korea, I didn’t hear many tactless jokes, but I was refused service at many places and sometimes treated like shit. It never really got bottled up inside though. I was just like “whatever”. I would still fight and die for every single one of those rude little bastards if the North ever attacked. I just hope they learn some tolerance before they die.
Maybe it’s because I never had to put up with constant daily racist bullshit, or maybe I just blow it off and ignore it easier than others. Probably the former. But the point is I have experienced some of the same shit you are all talking about in my life. Even though I’m white. I have experienced these things but I dont get bitter or grow a chip on my shoulder or develop my own predjudices about certain races based on the actions of a few dickhead representatives.

I accept that I probably dont know the extent of the issue. But I do have an idea. I have been there, I just dont dwell on it. None of those experiences are what stand out in my memories. I forget about the shit pretty much right after it’s over. Maybe this is only because I have the benefit of not putting up with the shit every single day, but only sometimes.

[quote[And I’m fairly certain a lot of times it’s an attempt to “bring me down a notch”, because hey, I’m kinda arrogant in real life too.[/quote]
Nothing wrong with being arrogant. Just remember that the person who may have just made an annoying comment to you is not the same person whose made the last 100 you heard that week. As hard as it may be, think of that and say it to yourself once befor you respond to that person. Obviously, I’m not talking about the asshole VT remark, but the next time your hear some lame comment, try to direct only an appropriate amount of vitriole to that specifc person for their inane comment. You wont come off as if you have a chip on your shoulder and they’ll see your sincerely aggravated and not just a sensitive dickhead. (Talking about real life encounters in the future, not talking about anything particular in this thread)

231

I meant that nobody thinks they personally are oversensitive about race, yet there are people who seem to be just that. Much the way nobody will admit to being a bad driver, yet we’ve all had to dodge the maneuvers of careless idiots on the road. I’m not sure how you equate that to me “not believing minorities experience things that the majority doesn’t,” or telling you racism is “all in your head,” or frankly, addressing you at all. You may have noticed one or two other participants in the thread, offering their own comments, since you first debuted your astutely-crafted OP. Many threads on this board evolve similarly.

See, now we’re getting somewhere. It’s all about bridging the racial divide, one interpersonal bond at a time. Baby steps!

232

Bear_Nenno that’s why I said “White in America”. I’m sorry you’ve experienced discrimination South Korea, but a White American in South Korea is hardly the same as being a minority in the United States. If a Chinese man came here speaking no English and expected everyone to accommodate to him, that would not fly. But that point is moot (much like your argument) because the historical and cultural factors are far to different to be compared in any meaningful level. To be honest, I think Whites have it pretty sweet anywhere they go, but feel free to disagree with me in a different thread.

Turnip, to put it bluntly I don’t think you can say if anyone’s being oversensitive about race because you’re not a minority. And your analogy to bad drivers simply doesn’t fly. If I’m oversensitive, it’s not going to affect you unless you provoke it. Look, if you’re still sore that I called you a grade schooler after your idiotic comment, then take it up with me in a different way. This thread had finally been going well after that shitfest and I don’t want it plunge into that again.

Look, everyone, if I offended you by sharing my experiences in an abrasive fashion that just rubbed you the wrong way, then I’m sorry. My OP was not directed towards you. You don’t have to defend yourself, you don’t have to apologize, you don’t have to do anything. I’d prefer you didn’t do anything. Chalk it up to me being an arrogant, oversensitive asshole and leave it alone. I know this is an internet message board and you can do as you please. But just humor me and let us have a discussion about the far-fetched concept that we may have been treated differently because of our race. You can roll your eyes all you want about how oversensitive and paranoid we are. In fact, you can start a thread about it. Just let this one go. Please.

233

A rich white girl from the West once told me that she saw her first black person when she was eight. She thought he was a monkey.
I grew up on a series of prison farms in the South as my dad shuffled from job to job working for one correctional agency or another. I met a lot of black people before the age of five. They were convicts.

I don’t interact with enough people on a daily basis in a context where race is relevant to have decided if I have racist proclivities or not. I’m no particular fan of PC and have trouble getting worked up over the use of the word “nigger”. I personally think I’d find institutionalized racism more insidious and worthy of my effort than railing against Bobby Joe-Bob’s word choices… I suppose I meet the racial stereotype presented in this thread of whites not “getting it”.

234

I’m not interested in calling you oversensitive and paranoid, but I am surprised at your assertion that whites cannot have experienced racism in America and so cannot know what it feels like.

235

Certainly, white people can and do experience individual attacks based on their race, but there is no constant, overarching climate of endemic, persistent, systemic racism against white people in the United States or Canada the same way there is against people of other races, any more than there is a climate of endemic heterophobia.

236

I have to admit, I laughed when I found out that the Korean VT shooter’s parents owned a dry cleaners. Sorry, OP.

237

Topical article in today’s Globe and Mail - racial profiling against people of Chinese descent in northern Ontario:

238

Think about that again. Do you really think that?

239

I’ve been reading along and I’ve been moved to tears by some of the comments made in this thread.

I can’t imagine what it’s like to be white in America no matter how closely I work with, play with or love individuals. Conversely, regardless of personal relationships or involvement in other cultures, I don’t think any white person can truly imagine what it’s like to be a person of color.

Because I might handle being called the n-bomb by feeling smugly superior to the harrasser doesn’t mean that another person’s outburst in the same situation is wrong or that they’re overreacting.

I’ve seen “comedic” parodies of the AA with a chip on their shoulder who finds a conspiracy to undermine the black man in every thing he sees. I suppose the point of the parody is to make the guy with the chip seem ridiculous.

In view of the murder of Catherine Johnston in Atlanta by police officers - the deliberate planting of evidence in the home of an elderly woman and the subsequent cover up, can some of you try to understand why many black people feel conspired against. Does anyone actually believe that these are isolated cases? How many innocents are now “felons” based on planted evidence and outright lies. (Some of you will always feel that we “make a big deal” in these cases.)

I’ve said all that so that some of you will look at the rage of people and respect their right to that rage. I don’t think that anyone who hasn’t walked in the OP’s shoes is in the position to make light of his or anyone else’s struggle.

I’ve seen racism firsthand - African American on Asian and was disgusted by the behavior of people I really believed I knew. I’ve heard the mockery of the restaurant owner’s accent by “friends” when the used their stupid idea of a Chinese accent when ordering take out. (my mom had a distinctive accent - her mom was Filipino (a)) and I wondered if they mocked my mom when I wasn’t around. I’ve heard nasty comments by AA women in the Asian owned nail shop. I speak up today - something I wish I’d done years ago.

Thank you OP for starting this important thread.

240

True enough. These are things that have happened to me because of my race:

  • Once I locked myself out on my balcony. My front door was open, so I fairly easily flagged down someone on the street to come into my house and open my balcony door so I could come in. This never would have happened had I been black (particularly a male). I asked a black male friend what he would do if he saw another black male in my position - would he come up into the apartment and unlock the door? He said “Hell no.”

  • I never have anything but positive (if uncomfortable) experiences charming strangers for unusual favours, such as asking for the time or for directions, bumming a quarter for the phone, sorting out visa and passport complications at the airport, pleading my way onto the bus because I lost my transfer, letting me out of the store without checking my bag even though I set off their anti-theft alarm, carrying/smoking pot in public places without comment, etc.

  • I got my current job because of a fortunate set of circumstances (each one of which was more available to me because of my race) that introduced me into the Old Boys Club; without this Old Boys Club status (and paycheque) I never would have got my current apartment.

  • I have seen examples of far worse racism than most of the people of colour I know, because people assume that because I am white it is “safe” to say horrifically racist things around me