I am so fucking sick of this casual racism

The BBQ Pit
201

Which is a pattern of behavior that would drive me batshit if not for it being so pervasive, predictable, and therefore, laughable.

I sympathize with the OP. I even get why the procession of Asian jokes, while offered good-naturedly, would add to his frustration. If you feel like the constant butt of stereotyping and you decide to complain about it, sometimes the last thing you want to see in return is more stereotyping, especially if the people doing it presumably belong to the majority. Sometimes you just want to vent and see that others understand and don’t think you’re being unreasonable. I feel that way all the time.

In the last year, I’ve really come to realize that it’s a silly silly thing to believe that racism (and sexism imbued with racism) isn’t an important issue. Amazingly enough, Katrina wasn’t enough by itself to bring me to this conclusion. It was other things. The subtlety of today’s racism largely reflects people’s ability to self-censor; we’ve gotten better at suppressing and condeming the overt stuff. But a lot of racist thinking still persists. You see it expressed when emotions get heated or when alcohol lowers inhibitions or when folks get backed against the wall. The scary face of racism lurks under the surface, just waiting to come out at the right moments. But it’s there. It’s naive to believe that just because we can’t always see it, it imparts no influence on our actions, sometimes leading to harm.

The true test of how enlightened a society is can be gauged by how swiftly the less-than-obvious displays of racism are challenged and/or condemned. Wagging fingers at superficial stuff (like Biden’s faux pas or Limbaugh’s trollery) is all good and well, but its bandwagon, Sesame Street partisan-flavored outrage. It’s a lot tougher to take a position against racism when racist sentiments come from people who share our opinions about other things. And unfortunately, that’s when taking a stand matters the most. Not to Godwinize this thread, but that sitting-on-the-sidelines attitude is what allowed Hitler to take over.

To address the OP, I think Asian stereotyping is treated like no big deal because of the model minority myth. Blacks and Latinos are told to emulate the Asians in all ways, which includes shutting up and not complaining when being pigeon-holed and stereotyped. There is a perception that Asians don’t let that stuff bother them, and therefore no one else should either. When you do make it clear it bothers you, then you are wallowing in victimization like “those blacks” and are an exception to the model minority rule. It’s fucked up all around, ain’t it?

202

You absolutely rock. This is exactly what I would have wanted to say if I were a bit more coherent about it.

203

Amen to your entire post, but this line…

… totally cracked me up!

And, like you, I’m glad that there’s a contingent of Black folks (especially people like Hippy Hollow, monstro, you with the face) and other folks of color (e.g., r4nd0mNumb3rs, HazelNutCoffee, etc.), and concerned White folks (e.g., you, Cartooniverse, China Guy, Auntbeast, matt_mcl, etc.) who either “get” it, or who want very badly to “get” it.

And, yeah, Hippy Hollow, this conversation, overall, has been far less acrimonious than have other similar conversations on these boards, but I think that that’s because some of the usual suspects have opted not to join the party this time around. I would say thankfully so (and that’s partly true), but I do kinda get a thrill whenever y’all send them home with their tails between their legs. :wink:

Just in case any of those people is lurking, let me say this: Believe it or not, we Black folks and other people of color don’t accept, prima facie, every. single. claim. of racial discrimination or prejudice that we hear about. We are indeed aware of the existence of those in our quarters who can find racial conspiracy in tea leaves (wish I’d come up with that one, but the props go to columnist Leonard Pitts), and those people are anathema to us. But don’t misunderstand me: For the most part, those of us who complain/bitch/moan/what have you about racism in this country and in this world do so because it is very real, it is very painful, and it is wholly unnecessary. And it is only by the grace of “god”/our collective sense of dignity and decency/plain old luck that we haven’t completely burned this shit to the ground. For all of the anger that we feel at the slights, both large and small, both overt and covert, that we are forced to endure on a daily basis (that’s right–Every. Goddamn. Day.) simply by dint of the colors of our skins–no, no, simply by dint of your craven inability and bone-headed refusal to treat us as equals because of the colors of our skins–y’all really don’t know (really, you don’t) how lucky you are that you’re able to live relatively safe, peaceful, and prosperous lives.

Think about that the next time you want to delude yourselves (or even delude us!) into believing that every claim of racism made by a person of color is solely the result of mass hysteria or some “how we gonna fuck with Massa today” conspiracy. Or…you can just read **Ensign Edison’s ** post again.

204

There’s like this generalized, cognitive-dissonance tendency to respond to certain unacceptable situations by grasping at any counterexample or questionable case and using that to tacitly or openly sow doubt as to any or all of the other cases, no matter how overwhelming the proportion may be. I think it’s because people want a comfort barrier so they don’t have to admit to themselves that really fucked-up shit truly happens. Other examples I’ve seen include obsessing over the cases in which people have falsely claimed to be survivors of sexual assault (which have been found to be as frequent as those who lie about refrigerator theft), and the immediate assertion that a homeless person probably has thousands socked away and is choosing to be homeless.

205

I did read it, and that is how it read to me. Given your statement - I apologize.

However, I do NOT apologize for my reaction. I grew up poor white trash. I now live in a very different area, and the number of times I hear someone talk about the racist South while they live in their 100% white/Asian neighborhood with cops that pull over blacks I seethe.

The racism of the white South is used to coat over the racism of the rest of the nation on the regular basis. It is a game of, “Well, we might have issues but at least we are not a bunch of rednecks!”

206

That’s a lot to fit on a Visa card, my friend.

207

I read something before I had kids that stuck very hard. An Asian adoptee discussed her upbringing and how she would step in front of the mirror in the morning with surprise that the face staring back was not white. I suspect- but cannot know- that this is not a situation unique to Asians.

I don’t know what that is like but I understood it in the abstract. I guess my goal has been to make sure they love themselves and accept who they really are, without beating them over the head with it. It’s a fine line, frequently an invisible one. There are adoptive families who do turn their adopted kids into some kind of cause celebre to no good end, IMHO. The reverse of racism is elitism and entitlement and I’ve no use for that crap either.

208

That’s all great and insightful, but what does it have to do with why the black man was being a racist asshole in the OP’s story? This thread has turned from “I’m so angry that all races seem to be rude and racist toward Asians even though many dont realize it” to “Yeah, I agree. Those white people are such asshole racists and they dont even realize it. It’s because they’ve lived in a world of privelidge and they can’t help themselves”.

209

Apparently, there are only three races: white, black, and.

210

It had more to do with the most recent posts in the thread than the OP. As for the rest of your bullshit, if you were paying attention at all, or capable of understanding what you’re hearing, you would have the decency not to spread it around.

211

I’m asking the same obtuse question, because I suggested that r4nd0mNumb3rs’s engergies would have been better spent in hitting the asshole in the face instead of castigating society at large, and was told to fuck off. But, as I’ve said on these boards time and again, race is a smokescreen: what’s really going on is about class. I’m working class, and I intruded with a working-class perspective into what is now obviously a middle-class mutual-admiration discussion which (from my humble perspective) will have no impact whatsoever on the asshole who insulted r4nd0mNumb3rs.

If I have to present my credentials in order to join in this discussion:

Well, a few weeks ago I started a pit treads about the racist punk who spray-painted “Fuck Niggers” in front of my house because my daughter had a black boyfriend. Should I have “fucked off” then?

Or the post about how, when my dad was involved in Civil Rights in the 1960’s he was taken from the house one night for a ride with a shotgun held to his head (and besides that nasty night, I guarantee you my dad’'s working life was affected by his convictions. Time & again, my dad got fired, and us kids went hungry. Any of you middle-class circle jerkers ever been hungry? Because of your particular race? Because of your dad’s convictions about the human race?) Should we have “fucked off” then?

Or how I was with a Korean-American woman for 19 years and we took shit like you wouldn’t believe from both whites and Asians. I didn’t take shit like that because I “like it sideways,” but because I loved her and her baby. Should we have “fucked off” then?

I only posted these true stories because, to me, they seem interesting. It isn’t going to change the world. That’s something I’ll have to do here in my real life, and I’m not ruling out the possiblity of punching anyone in the face as I see fit.

212

This makes perfect sense to me. Hell, I like comfort barriers, too, because without them, I wouldn’t be able to function on a day-to-day basis.

For example, WRT the topic under discussion, my comfort barrier is that I’m more-or-less a happy(ish)-go-lucky kind of guy, and–despite my anger and frustration about racism that I’d guess clearly comes through in my posts here–that’s the attitude that I tend to face each new day with. I mean, even though I have reason to believe that, on any given day, in any given situation, somebody’s going to remind me of my “place” because I’m Black,* I know that I can’t allow my thoughts of “Okay, let’s see what de White folk are gonna to throw my way today” to influence the way that I move about the world. (This, as I’m guessing you realize, is not limited to me, other Black people, or even just Blacks or other people of color.)

*Apart from basic, it’s-something-in-the-air/culture/whatever homophobia, anti-Jewish sentiment, or anti-atheist sentiment, people don’t usually attempt to put me in my “place” on those scores because you can’t necessarily tell by looking at me that I’m gay, and since I wear a hat outdoors, you’d probably not see my kippah and know that I’m a Jew, too. And, well, atheist…you get the idea.

So, yes, comfort barriers do serve a purpose, and they can be helpful, right? Unfortunately, they contibute to our epidemic of denial, and not only WRT racism, but also WRT sexism, homophobia, the abysmal lack of healthcare in this country, the way that poor people are treated, etc. And not just, unfortunately, in the sense of “I don’t want to know about these terrible things,” (I *wish * that that were as far as it extended) but, and I think more importantly, in the sense of “well, I don’t have anything to do with this/my family wasn’t here during slavery (and, therefore, didn’t own slaves)/I have gay friends and/or relatives/blah-blah-blah, ad nauseam,” and it prevents people from performing the real soul-searching introspection that’s necessary for them (for all of us, really) to think about how they, if not strictly actively, but definitely passively, contribute to the momentum of the world’s journey to hell.

What to do about this? Well, obviously folks need to speak up, and keep doing so. I also think that, again, WRT racism, people who look like, live like, and have more in common with racists (of whatever stripe) need to do the speaking up, no matter how uncomfortable it can be. And I know how uncomfortable this can be because I’ve had to address people’s isms or anti’s. Awkward because I looked like, lived like, or shared some other common characteristics with the offenders, and it’s like, “Well, damn, Li’l Pluck’s getting on my case, but we’re the same!” And it’s like, “No, baby, in some very fundamental ways, we really aren’t the same.”

The bottom line is, this kind of work has to be done. By each of us, and if we’re really smart, and if we really want to be the best people that we can be (and if we want those in our lives–however tangientially so–to be the best people that they can be), we’ll be both dilligent and indefatigable (even if we do feel fatigued) in our efforts.

So, yes, except for when we’re talking about people who just don’t want to “get” this stuff, I concur.

213

Oy, chaver, vat am I gonna do vith you, huh? :wink:

214

Is this thread still here? :eek:

215

In some respects. It’s not your father’s “I am so fucking sick of this casual racism” thread, though.

216

No, the thread won’t impact that guy at all. Threads on messageboards rarely do. Decking the guy would have done more harm than good though, since the OP probably would have gone to jail, and the idiot definitely wouldn’t have learned anything. Class does play a part in some of these problems, as I have seen nervous people visibly relax when they find out where I’m from. I don’t believe that all of the racial conflict has to do with class though. None of the examples in your post seem to have anything to do with classist conflicts. I don’t think we’ll ever get to the point where racism and classism are eradicated, but these discussions seem to help people feel better, and can teach lessons that we can all take into the real world.

217

Hey, Slithy Tove.

Look, I won’t speak to your participation in this thread up until this point, or about the whole “fuck-off” thing, since I’m comfortable leaving that to you, the OP, or other Doper’s with whom you have have experienced friction in this thread.

I do want to say this, though:

I totally understand where you’re coming from (and, no doubt, so do some other Dopers) re your assertion that it’s class, not race, and I don’t completely disagree. I imagine, for instance, that many wealthy Whites wouldn’t put their realtors on speed dial because just-as-wealthy Blacks moved into their neighborhood (though one has to bear in mind that there could, indeed, be a tipping point at which this would not be true), since it could be assumed that such people, because they can afford to move into the neighborhood, have been “vetted.”

From where I stand, though, this is not always the case. I’ve heard too many stories of Blacks and (visually-indentifiable) Hispanics becoming the victims of bullshit, racial-profiling traffic stops just because they drove cars that racist cops, eager to prove that it is THEY who have the biggest “dicks,” didn’t think that Blacks and Hispanics could own such-and-such make/model apart from drug dealing or outrigth thievery. I realize that this is the standard refutation for what you say, but even so, it doesn’t make this kind of stuff any less real. (I assure you that it’s happened to me in my lifetime.)

The point is: While I certainly don’t want to discount your assertion that classism is a HUGE problem in this country ('cause it most certainly is, right?), a lot of times, green doesn’t make black and less black. Like Stevie said, you can’t cash in your face. (For those who didn’t get the reference, I’m talking about Stevie Wonder, whose talent I don’t have the words to describe.)

I must say that I’m not sure why you described this thread as a “middle-class circle jerk,” and I hope that you’ll try to explain it. However, if it means what I think it means, I don’t believe that that’s the case at all. I don’t know any more about most of these other posters’ class situations than you do. I’m just happy for any opportunity to find out that I’m not alone, and that there are people of all stripes out there who care just as much as I do about racism, and who take it just as seriously as I do.

From the post that I quoted, it seems to me (if the sleeping pill that’s now taking effect with a vengeance hasn’t addled my brain) that you do care. Granted, I say this without benefit of recall of your previous posts in this thread (and I’m too drugged up right now to go back and re-read them), but I think that you’d be welcome to jump into similar discussions, provided, of course, that you didn’t prove yourself to be guilty of the “sins” that you were (again, takikng my cue from your post that I quoted) accused of in this thread.

And let me say this: I appreciate (regretfully so) that you and your family have endured shit for your “race-traitor” aspirations. And as someone who is descended from survivors of the Jim Crow south, I truly appreciate that your daddy was willing to put his principles before…well, I don’t want to say “feeding his children,” but I think you get the point.

I probably wanted to say more, but this sleeping pill is totally giving it to me, so I’ll just end here before I become completely incoherent (and you should’ve seen the typo’s that I’ve had to fix so far–apologies for those that slipped through the crack).

218

No, somehow it has become a platform for Ensign Edison to lecture his Caucasian kinfolk about slipping on the hairshirt and learning to accept their inner racist. I’m ever so glad I reserved my seat early.

219

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. Because what it sounds like you’re saying is that most of the conflicts we call “racist” are actually “classist”. In some ways, that’s true (the whole “redneck/white trash” thing is much more about class than race). But middle-classdom does not protect you from racism. Most if not all of the folks of color in this thread are of middle-class backgrounds, and yet we still have stories of racism to share. Doesn’t that shoot a hole in your “smokescreen” theory?

I’m not sure the OP would have been well-received if he had informed us that he had physically whaled on his tormentor in retaliation. The consensus would have been that his response was totally disproportionate to the offense. Worse, he could have been accused of perpetuating sterotypes–the Scary, Violent Asian. I have to say that this is the most infuriating part of stereotypes. Whatever you do, you can be accused of making things “worse”.

How would you have responded if someone had entered your thread and told you to calm down and stop being so angry? Wouldn’t you have told that person to “fuck off” too?

Why are you trying to get credit for your father’s good work? Is that supposed to absolve you of something? If your father was a racist, would that mean we would be justified in telling you to “fuck off”? I don’t get your point here.

What, you want a medal for being a decent person? A scooby snack? What is it that you want? Someone to say, “Hey Slithy Tove is excluded from the conversation. He’s a good guy!” Again, I don’t understand why you’re listing these “credentials”. They just make you sound like an overly defensive wanker.

That’s all very gravy for you. But some people would rather handle situations non-violently, without a criminal record attached to their name. Goodness, if I had acted violently the last time someone called me a nigger, I might STILL be in jail. And in the process, my reputation as an Angry Black Nigger would have been firmly established, the racist scum would continue to be racist scum, and the world–as you put it–would still be the same. So why would punching someone be more effective than talking on a message board? Why does someone creating a Pit Thread need to be told to “calm down, buddy”, but punching someone in the face is seen as an appropriate response? It does not compute.

But maybe I’m just blinded by my middle-class values.

220

Slithy Love, your working class perspective boiled down to “you’re a pussy” based on your (inaccurate) interpretation of the event I described. Quite frankly, even if things happened the way you imagined it, I don’t know why it pissed you off so much.
If you had stories of race related struggles then why didn’t post them instead of being a prick to me? If you had, I probably wouldn’t have told you to fuck off.
Right now, we’re discussing issues that do impact our daily lives and if that’s so intolerable for you to witness, then sorry. If you made a thread about the issues you faced as working class White man, I’m not going to chime in and make light of your concerns and assert that what you’re discussing is bullshit, because I don’t know what it’s like being you. And you don’t what it’s like being me, so even if your best friend is Black that doesn’t give you the right to shit on our discussion.

Bear Nenno, if you read the thread, people were also discussing the rifts between Asians and other groups due to the model minority myth among other things. But clueless White people (like you) decided to offer your very much appreciated wit and support so the discussion incorporated White privilege as well.

Vinyl Turnip you’re easily the biggest idiot that has yet to offer his profound “insights” into racial matters. If you have trouble believing minorities experience things that the majority doesn’t, then fine. Just keep it to yourself and have a fucking ball telling your clever “ching chong” jokes to your friends.