I am so fucking tired of this infantile bullshit...

I am setting myself up for a good old-fashioned “whupping”, but I can’t contain my annoyance any longer. I speak of the, what seem to be, dozens of various election related threads that are littering the boards. Religion, politics and sex are the three subjects that, in general conversation, tend to arouse some of the strongest emotions. It’s not as if I don’t realize we’re tossing around some highly charged ideas. Nor am I unmindful of the frustration and disappointment that people on both sides of the issue are feeling after a month of legal battles and uncertainties. But what I can do without, what I wish we could all do without, is the depressing emergence of self-righteous venom that seems to leak into every single fucking discussion any more. I don’t care how strongly you feel about your side of the issue, the simple fact that someone has the temerity to disagree with you does not, in an of itself, give evidence to your pet theory that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a sloped brow, drooling mouth-breather who can barely count to five without using fingers. Intelligent people can disagree. Deal with it.

I am very conscious of the fact that I’ve only been around for a few months, and don’t know most of the people here very well at all. But I still find myself disappointed. Perhaps I have no right to be, knowing how strongly people feel about this subject. However, I would have hoped that people on both sides of the issues were a little more interested in discussing and debating the issues in some sort of rational manner than indulging in a round of foam at the mouth vituperative bashing of the candidates and their supporters.

I don’t mean to make the same sorts of sweeping generalizations that I see many of the election discussion contain. Not everyone who contributes to these threads are indulging in the same sort of inane and juvenile insults which annoy me so much, there is a great deal of good information, well thought out debate and intelligent discussion. I’ve learned a great deal about election law, a subject I thought I had a fairly good grip on prior to this debacle. But at the same time, it seems that I can’t read a thread that hasn’t been polluted, at one time or another, by a preponderance of partisan bullshit that bears little or no relation to the subjects at hand. There are certain threads that I don’t even bother opening, because they’re nothing more than people bitching about how “Gore stole …” or “Bush is too dumb too…” If that’s what entertains you, fine. But quit pretending they have anything to do with finding the truth (in whatever guise it might be masquerading at the moment).

I happen to be a registered Democrat who wanted to vote for Senator McCain. Unfortunately, he didn’t make it, which caused me to become a tepid supporter of Vice President Gore. My support, being so unenthusiastic at the beginning, has done nothing but shrink in the month since the election. I completely understand why he has tried every legal avenue in order to get the questionable votes counted. As a theoretical point, I agree with his position. However, in my personal opinion, he should have conceded at some point along this roller coaster from Hell. Nor do I mean to imply that I find all of his actions, or the actions of the Democratic party and its supporters to be admirable and above reproach. The attempts to disregard the absentee ballots are redolent of hypocrisy of the highest order. To turn around and exclude ballots for “irregularities” while attempting to get other “irregular” ballots takes an ability to lie with a straight face that only professional poker players and politicians share. Of course, given that the Republicans seem to be doing the exact same thing with respect to keeping out some of the disputed ballots while attempting to ensure the absentee ballots are counted, I’d say there’s plenty of hypocrisy to go around. There are plenty of examples, from both sides that illustrate that everyone has engaged in behavior that people are going to find questionable. Reacting to the situation with the self-righteous admonition that your side’s position and actions are unsullied by the taint of self-interest is laughable and does nothing but marginalize you and your positions to the realm of comedic relief.

When this entire episode began to unfold, I thought it was wonderful. Having registered as a poster here only a few a couple of months prior, I looked forward tot he opportunity to see reasoned and intelligent debate and discussion as the whole thing played out. There was some of that, particularly early in the dispute, but as it’s dragged on, the ugliness has become more and more a fixture in almost every discussion.

And, in a larger way, I thought it was going to be a wonderful opportunity to show that the American political system, for all its flaws, was so strong and stable that it was capable of withstanding this sort of confusion. I still believe that it is. But I didn’t count upon the reaction of the partisan supporters. I thought that intelligent people were capable of realizing that other people could honestly and rationally disagree without subjecting them to questions about their intelligence, their honesty or their parentage. Silly fucking me. What was I thinking?

I have been saying for the last month that the election has brought out the worst in a lot of people, and I don’t just mean Gore and Bush. I have avoided all the election threads here for that reason.

Ain’t gonna get a “whupping” from me. You’re my new best friend. I’ve got a similar rant I’ve re-written about 5 times and haven’t been able to make half as coherent and cogent as yours.

I’m coming from just about the opposite side of the spectrum as you (reluctant Bush Republican). I’m so sick of the argument on both sides saying that their opposition is either stupid, well-meaning but duped, or evil. Most of the issues in this election are things that reasonable people can disagree over.

Again, well said!

Fenris

Amen, Ankh Too. IMO, the process is working. Whether you like the outcome or not, the process is working; we don’t have riots in the street; we don’t have the military overthrowing the government due to uncertainty; we just have a bunch of people – candidates, voters, election workers, and judges – doing their best to sort the mess out. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the democratic system in action. It ain’t pretty, but it works. I’ve never understood what people imagine will be gained by removing basic civility from the equation.

Religion, politics and sex are three topics where I seldom read beyond the OP.
Catholic, Democrat, Married with Children Soccer Mom.
What’s left to add?
If people ask for a vote, I note one of the above and quit.
If they want to argue and bewail, that’s when I lose interest and switch to the next topic.
See how easy that is?

Right on, dude.

I admit, I read the election threads with interest, because I am learning a tremendous amount of information about election law and modern constitutional philosophies, but I agree it’s harder and harder to sift through all the bickering. Like Fenris, I had a similar thread notion in the back of my mind (though with a slightly different focus).

My real question is, does anybody truly and honestly believe they have an unsullied, nonpartisan view of all of this? I read the election threads, but I do not participate, because I recognize my own strongly partisan viewpoint and freely admit that it makes my opinion, to put it politely, objectively suspect. (Not to mention redundant.) Therefore, I see no point in adding yet another strident voice to the ongoing imbroglio, and I refrain from posting.

Does this put me at risk of appearing “holier-than-thou”? Perhaps. In my defense, I’ll say only that it’s taking all of my willpower not to throw a couple of partisan jabs into this, even at the risk of violating the point of what I’m trying to say. It’s hardly easy to monitor oneself, and I’m sure, even with the best of intentions, I still slip regularly.

Anyway, Ankh-Too, far from setting yourself up for a “whuppin,’” I think you have said, and said well, something that few others had the wisdom to perceive or chutzpah to assert. Thanks.

The past month has shown exactly how vermin infested out legislative and judicial systems have become. It is definitely way past time for the Orkin man treatment. This would make great comedy channel programing if it wasn’t about the government of the United States.

Here here Ankh Too!!!

Ankh_too

You’re not going to get an argument out of me on this one.

I’m sick of the Gore supporters who yell that the process was confusing. I’m sick of Bush supporters who refuse to acknowledge that regardless of the confusion, the ballots could have been illegal. I’m sick of Gore supporters who demand recount after recount no matter how many times it comes up with Bush ahead. I’m sick of Bush supporters who criticize Gore for wanting to use legal means to settle the matter. I’m sick of Gore supporters making fun of Dubya and Bush supporters laughing at algore.

Does this all sound like one big contradiction? Maybe. But I’m sick of protester after protester shouting “Bush! Bush!” and “Gore! Gore!” when they should stop and realize that their candidate isn’t God. Their candidate wants to win and will do whatever it takes to win. We above all else should try to ensure that the process remains fair and equitable, that it follows the rule of law, or we’re all screwed.

The group of people I’m really sick at right now are the ones who didn’t bother voting. Reform party, Green Party, Constitutional Party, whatever. Vote.

“My vote didn’t matter.” Yeah…how about we fill a movie theatre with people that think like you? Guess what? You guys could have single handedly changed the history of this nation one month ago.

Oh, so you mention three parties with no one in office, but IGNORE the Libertarian party? The 3rd biggest party? SEE! THIS IS WHY WE… what? Oh. Sorry.

–Tim

I think you’re right about the election bringing out the worst in people.

I’m on an email list of moms who all got pregnant at the same time. We’ve had plenty o’ battles in the ensuring 2.5 years, but I thought we’d moved beyond all the stupid stuff. But the election reminded me of how narrowminded and judgmental some of the moms on the list are, and I was disgusted anew. I don’t give a flying fuck who any of them voted for. I do care that they not make ridiculously overbroad, sweeping generalizations about those who voted the other way. I also am utterly disheartened to know how many of them fucking believe ANYTHING they read in the media, as long as it supports the outcome they are hoping for. And that’s on both sides of the issue.

Even more depressing to realize that these people are ALL RAISING CHILDREN to probably be just as poorly-informed, bigoted, and gullible.

Even more depressing to realize that these people are ALL RAISING CHILDREN to probably be just as poorly-informed, bigoted, and gullible. ]]]]]]]]]]]]] <-- CAAOM

This is the scarriest part and not manny seem to think anything about it.
::::: sheesh ::::

Ankh_Too, you’ve consistently proven yourself to be rational, reasonable, and very intelligent. Especially on the election issue. For these reasons, I commend you highly, and I want you to know that you have my utmost of respect.

I’ve figured the animosity that comes with this issue is due to the fact that both candidates are relatively plain in comparison to previous candidates, and as such the only way a person can justify his or her political position is to make the other side seem as bad as possible. “The grass is always browner on the other side.”

Because of this, I’ve kept my involvement in the election threads to a minimum. If you present an opinion or a view, or even some evidence with a cite or two, you’ll get three or four people of opposing viewpoint to come and, basically, shout you down.

This is not an atmosphere that fights ignorance… this is an atmosphere that encourages juvenile behavior. The reasonable people have no voice, while the unreasonable people refuse to listen.

Ah, well… maybe it’ll all cool down… maybe.

I am possibly the kind of offensive poster you all despair of in the sense that my first visit to SDMB was made expressly to vent by flaming someone who had what I deemed to be a narrow-minded pro-Bush attitude. (Both flame wars I participated in ended on a relatively amicable note, but that is not the point I want to make.)

I’m not speaking now to defend myself b/c I don’t take Ankh’s op personally, but I do want to suggest a different way of looking at things.

Cervaise, I’m not suggesting that I have “an unsullied, nonpartisan view of” anything. What I do feel is that my partisan position is an informed one. I care deeply about a range of issues and I take pains to keep reasonably informed about them. I don’t vote for candidates for major office based on their party affiliation: I do my best to judge them on the merits of their record. It is highly unlikely that I would ever vote for a Republican (although I certainly see things to admire in a figure like McCain) because the great majority of Republicans support policies that I strongly dislike.

What I question about your post, Cervaise, is your feeling that you lack objectivity because you are partisan. I understand wanting to refrain from expression b/c you’re fed up with argument, and I certainly understand the feeling that vitriolic argument is unpleasant and often counterproductive. But the notion that informed partisan people lack objectivity is deeply flawed.

The more informed you are, the more you’re going to have a position on what you believe is right or wrong on any issue whether it’s free trade, or welfare reform, or reproductive rights, or vouchers, or what have you. That position may will likely make you partisan; you’ll attach yourself to the party or candidate whose position most closely matches what you think is right. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that you will cease to be objective. In fact it can mean quite the contrary. As an informed and concerned person you’ll be in a position to know if your favorite candidate has lapsed, or if changing circumstances warrant a change in your position. I know that for me to enter certain discussions without taking a strong position I’d have to force myself to be less objective since its my objectivity that allows me to evaluate the evidence for the injustice and/or wrong-headedness of certain policies.

I believe that a healthy democracy depends on informed and opinionated people–in other words, partisans of various issues, platforms, ideologies, candidates. Partisanship is sickening when it involves self-interested politicians or officials doing what they know to be wrong just to help their candidate get elected or stay in power. Partisanship on the Internet can be very frustrating when it devolves into substanceless name-calling (and I’ve done my share of that). The answer to that kind of frustration may be to seek out a group where flaming is barred. But however just one’s frustrations, I think it’s dangerous to begin to see political difference as though it were meaningless bias with no objective basis: as though we were arguing about our favorite color, or whether spaghetti is a better food than pancakes.

There’s a reason why some subjects produce more venom than others. The venom itself may be disheartening, but the stakes are high. It’s fair to condemn the venom, and understandable to want to avoid it; but, I’m suggesting, don’t get so frustrated that you lose sight of the importance of some of these differences.

Could this possibly be the start of groundswell of reason? Nah, too much to expect.

Dang right this election has been disillusioning. Not so much because the process was messy; the country is at peace, life goes on as usual and the process will get overhauled.

It’s been disillusioning because of what people have permitted themselves to make of it. The issue in doubt is the national executive; not a god, not an icon, just one temporary executive in a layered system of checks and balances. I can’t believe the hype and heat from people who either 1. didn’t vote at all or 2. only voted in this election. They quote pundits and talking heads, but have no idea who their local officials are.

Sweet sufferin’ fish at sea, talk about stupidity! Hype and ballyhoo aside, the Prez doesn’t decide most things that directly impact life: how much are your property taxes, how much goes to schools, what are the schools teaching, can your dog run loose, what about those idiots with the blaring, cheapo car speakers that wake you up at 2 a.m., etc.

No, the whole shebang is dumped onto one national figure, and the “debate” gets overloaded with emotion, hype, exaggeration and noise. And supposedly sensible people lose their respect for others in the glare of the kleiglights.

Quick quiz: name your local and state officials, and their party affiliations. Describe their outlook, based on voting record. List, in detail, their marital record, any lapses, family associations, educational background, etc.

My point is, this doofus election is a system correcting itself, nothing more. Whichever poor sumbitch ends up with the job doesn’t worry me as much as the lack of civic impulse and common sense among people who should know better.

Hell, P.T. Barnum was right, much as I hate to admit it.

Veb

Veb, with your permission, I would like to print out those two lines and provide a copy to everyone I know.

[[[[Now you said a mouthfull…
Even more depressing to realize that these people are ALL RAISING CHILDREN to probably be just as poorly-informed, bigoted, and gullible. ]]]]]]]]]]]]] <-- CAAOM

This is the scarriest part and not manny seem to think anything about it.
::::: sheesh ::::]]]]]]]]<----Catbiker

So? What are you advocating, Catbiker? Government stepping in and telling us how to raise our children? Or maybe state run ‘homes’ to do the raising for us? Yes it is scary how some people chose to raise their children, or how they chose to not raise their children. Personally, I am more concerned about those who do nothing, who don’t seem to care that the child is not dressed warmly or isn’t clean or hasn’t been fed today. There are too many people out there who live for their own pleasure and ignore any responsibility toward their children (who were only conceived because of the ‘pleasure’ involved). At least people who are raising their children to think differently than you are raising their children to think, no matter how misguidedly.

[[[end of rant]]]

That may be true but for the last few years we’ve had a Republican majority in both houses and a Democratic president who used his power to shape or veto quite a lot of major Republican-led legislation. Apart from appointing nominees to the Supreme Court, there are a lot of things a president does.

Are you aware that the US has a position on the environment that is so different from Europe’s that talks recently broke down about what to do to reduce global warming? Any Bush presidency is likely to amplify that divide as he has a record of appointing anti-environmentalists to positions of authority and has already talked about these kinds of individuals for his cabinet. Gore is not the environmentalist he appeared when he first wrote on the subject but his position is certainly better that Bush’s.

Are you aware that legislatures often attach riders to bills so that a bill with bipartisan support that everyone’s been wrangling over for months will end up having some noxious or expensive legislation attached to it that no one (except some lobbyist that’s been feeding the campaign coffers of the politician who wrote the bill) wants. The general public very rarely reads anything about these riders until it’s too late and once again a president is in a position to halt them. (That doesn’t mean they always do, only that they often can.)

“I can’t believe the hype and heat from people who either 1. didn’t vote at all or 2. only voted in this election. They quote pundits and talking heads, but have no idea who their local officials are.”

This is indeed very annoying. OTOH, as the people who didn’t vote at all are the majority of voters, maybe we should recognize their position as the true will of the people ;).

*“the Prez doesn’t decide most things that directly impact life: how much are your property taxes, how much goes to schools, what are the schools teaching, can your dog run loose, what about those idiots with the blaring, cheapo car speakers that wake you up at 2 a.m., etc.” *

Partly true, though the federal government does supplement education of various kinds and Bush seems determined to divert some of that into some kind of voucher program. I think this idea totally sucks and it’s another reason why I really care about who is our next president. Nor does caring about that mean that I don’t care about who is on my local school board, as I’m sure you realize.

“My point is, this doofus election is a system correcting itself, nothing more. Whichever poor sumbitch ends up with the job doesn’t worry me as much as the lack of civic impulse and common sense among people who should know better.”

Actually, I’m not sure I understand this comment. When you saying “a system correcting itself” do you mean that some Florida counties are likely to replace the “Votomatic” with a more reliable technology? Do you mean that people will now want to address the inequities between the voting apparatus in poor as opposed to well-off counties? If so, I agree there’ll be a lot of attention to all of this in the future and I hope lots of good comes out of it. This has been an educational experience for everyone.

But, if that’s what you meant, why imply that those who argued about this issue lacked “civic impulse.” Maybe some people’s civic impulse was ill-informed or ill-expressed.

You seem to assume that people who keep abreast of their property taxes and local school board are productive citizens and those who pay attention to national affairs are somehow un-civic. Shouldn’t the civic impulse apply to both spheres? Am I just getting you wrong here?

…will summon demons to arise from the nether-dimensions and eat the faces of innocent children. Al Gore on the other hand, if he becomes president will condem everyone to hell, where they’ll be forced to drink molten lead through cast-iron straws for all eternity. We’ve heard this before.

Good FUCK, there are approximately ten billion threads in GD on which candidate is the poopy-head. Can’t you find a more appropriate place to post this?

What is it with you and your ilk? Are all you so devoid of a sense of identity and self-worth that ANY TIME someone mentions your president-wanna-be’s name or anything that could possibly have a vague sense of connection to him, you’ve gotta chirp in with a rigorous defense? Do you know what this sounds like? Every conversation I’ve had with this sort of zealot has gone like this:
Fenris: “Y’know, I saw a really good movie last night. It was…”
Zealot friends: "93.6% of people who didn’t vote my way are too dumb to turn on their televisions"
Fenris: “Yeah. Anyway, it starred Judy Holliday and she…”
Zealot friends:"The other candidate will take away all holidays for everyone! Forever! You’ll be forced to work in the salt-mines for 80 hours a week during what used to be your days off!"
Fenris:“Uh-huh. Like I was saying, Holliday was playing a telephone answering service operator…”
Zealot friends:"My candidate keeps an open line of communication! You’ll never get a busy signal when you try to talk to him."
Fenris: Punches zealot friends. (not really, but…)

Fenris (who may’ve just hit the breaking point on “My president wanna-be’s dick is bigger than your president wanna-be’s dick!” hijacks)

Dear Fenris, thanks so very much for missing the point of this entire thread as well as my own contribution to it. So far as I can tell, Ankh and those who supported Ankh’s op are fed up with precisely the kind of empty rhetoric that you just vomited forth.

My point has been to distinguish between understandable frustration and substantive difference. You cited me in the midst of saying that reaching an international consensus on global warming is one area where the difference between candidates may matter a great deal.

Where exactly in your verbal equivalent of untreatable sludge am I supposed to figure out where you stand on this hugely important matter?