I can't deal with transgender anymore

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

[Was considering making this a Pit thread. I eventually cooled off, but this concerns me a lot and I won’t remain silent on it.]

There’s a tenant at the place I work who always wears a dress and makeup and has a slightly…“saucy” tone, if you will. He has a male name and is listed in all of our official government records as male. A few co-workers refer to him as female and call him by a female nickname, but it’s strictly their choice. I don’t know what his issues are. I don’t know what specific category of male dress- and makeup-wearer he is. (That would require access to medical records, which is way above my pay grade.) It’s none of my business. HUD says he’s male, so I do too, and if the issue ever comes up I say exactly this. There have been no problems. I’ve never been scolded, cautioned, or written up over this.

For the record, Hawaii has pretty stringent laws regarding hate speech and inappropriate language by its employees. And of course it’s one of the most diverse places in America, so being offensive to any group, no matter how small or marginalized it is on the mainland, is always a bad idea. Live here long enough and you will have to deal with a Filipino, or a Chinese, or a Samoan, or a homosexual, or a vegetarian, or a follower of Pele, or a follower of the other Pele, or a reggae lover, or a taco lover, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or anything else you can imagine, many in positions of power. Anyone who wants to get anywhere in life learns to accept all kinds. More so if unathletic, unwilling to completely debase oneself for popularity, and not big and scary, which was definitely the case for me.

And for a long time, I had no trouble at all being a good guy. There were certain words you had to avoid, certain ways to conduct yourself in public, certain mindsets to have and not have, and the bottom line was help others, be courteous, show some respect, and stay informed. When the first big wave of political correctness hit in the early 90’s, I didn’t bat an eyelid at “flight attendant”, “firefighter”, and “homemaker”. Not being racist, sexist, obnoxious, pigheaded, greedy, dishonest, rude, violent, cruel, or brutal is easy.

So you can imagine it was something of a shock when I received a warning because of something I said about a certain YouTube personality who (trying very hard to make this as innocuous as possible) adopted a female identity. I’ll refrain from naming names because 1. I want to avoid getting in further hot water and 2. it’s not important to the broader point I’m making.

I’d like to stress that the whole subject of transgenderism is very confusing to me (and it hasn’t helped that I was never taught about this at all in any school or workplace I’ve ever been in). Okay, starting point: we all know how chromosomes determine gender at conception. Y chromosome equals male; no Y chromosome equals female. Even in rare cases like Klinefelter’s syndrome (XXY), this basic biological fact holds. “That’s biological sex, not gender.” Okay…difference? Are we talking what the genitals look like? “No, it’s not about genitals or appearance.” Okay, I’m not sure about the first item but the second, definitely. Men can look soft and pretty, and women can look tough and hard. In fact, the terms “femme and “butch”… “No! It’s not about tomboys! These people have transitioned!” Oh, that! Yes, I’m aware of a complex surgical procedure that can… “NO! Not all transpeople go through surgery!” Uh…okay…so what is the distinction? “They identify as the opposite gender!” Uh…okay…so you just have to declare what you are and… “NO! It’s not like that!” All right, I’m not going to be one of those right wing slugs who crack the same “I identify as an inanimate object” joke ad nauseum, but I’d really like some clarification… “Stop being disrespectful!” Wait, is this a legal process we’re talking about here, like changing your name… :scream: “NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!” (And then there’s “genderfluidity”, for which I currently have about as much useful information as I do about the Unified Field Theory.) Holy Yukari, it’s like Intelligent Design all over again. Now I’m certain that there is plenty of hard science governing who is an actual transperson and who, well, isn’t, but unless someone somewhere is willing to have a mature discussion instead of just barking angrily, I can’t help but be misinformed.

Which in itself is usually not a serious problem; calmly correcting a poster’s initial assumption (or cracking cheap but mostly harmless jokes at the mistake, which appears to be the preferred method here) happens on civilized message boards all the time. I can’t count the number of times I got facts about people, events, teams, dates, laws, philosophies etc. wrong, and the immediate response was to set me straight and carry the discussion on from there. But when it comes to transgenderism, I’m apparently supposed to be an expert in a very complex, confusing subject of which I have no formal teaching and very little true understanding, and if I ever misgender anyone…again, based on identity or preferred pronouns, not any official record that I have access to…even if I have reason to have my doubts, even if it’s an honest mistake, I can count on someone jumping down my throat and in some places even giving a formal warning. (I should point out that I have said, far, far nastier things about certain people…the American Ninja Warrior thread and my own Reality TV Season Finale thread in particular…without any kind of reprisal.)

I’ll be blunt. I am absolutely terrified of ever approaching this subject again. Anywhere. Fanaticism scares the crap out of me. I don’t ever want to express a sincere doubt or be inaccurate in how I describe someone and get my head bitten off. For a long time I’ve had the tiny nagging fear that someday I’ll be banned for something I had no idea was out of line, and in this politically-charged environment, I’m not taking any chances. I like this board a lot and don’t have anything that can replace it. Yes, I know the abuse, ostracism, and violence transpeople face, and I’m 100% dead set against it (having faced such hideous treatment for much of my life, this is to be expected). The world’s most vulnerable citizens deserve basic dignity and safety. But the next time someone brings up a news article about transperson who was badly beaten on the street, or a Republican governor proposes a “child protecting” law that the Roman Empire would find excessive, my response will be to run, run, run like the wind, never say a word, never think about it again.

And I have to ask, does this total militancy help the cause? It’s nice to think that righteousness always wins, but if you want to defeat powerful, well-organized opposition in government and society, you need allies. You need to convince a lot of people who are not perfectly enlightened or educated to support you and not sit on the sidelines or, worse, support your opponents. If you or someone who’s on your team (or claims to be) brandishes a sword at the first whiff of misgendering or deadnaming or whichever, a lot of people who might have supported you are going to be driven off. At best they won’t want any trouble and will distance themselves. And no, I’m not saying everyone is like that, but it only takes one really bad confrontation to drive a potential friend away for good.

I’m now going to spend some time thinking about the current state of the world, and then there’s Olympic trials to get excited about.

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(never mind)

3

I agree it can be confusing to decide what the correct way to refer to someone’s gender (when not obvious) it is my experience most people who identify as trans are used to the confusion of others and not too fussed by it. They might correct you which is as it should be. I will refer to you (general “you”) any way you want me to but you need to tell me.

There will be a few in any group who are more militant and cranky. Don’t let them get to you. Just do your best and if someone gets upset that you used the wrong pronoun just say, “Sorry, how would you prefer I address you?” Hopefully, that shames them for being an ass and you have not escalated the encounter.

If, for some reason, they really pop off just walk away.

4

If it makes you feel better, it’s not just you.

A few months ago, the Cass Review was released. This was a review of the state of transgender youth care, commissioned by the NHS. The findings were not good. Here’s a BBC article about it:

The review investigated a number of things, but what’s most relevant here is how toxic the entire subject has become:

“There are few other areas of healthcare where professionals are so afraid to openly discuss their views, where people are vilified on social media, and where name-calling echoes the worst bullying behaviour,” she said.

Her report added that the “exceptional” toxicity has had a negative impact on the quality and availability of evidence.

People who pushed back in any way were bullied and worse. So many medical professionals concluded the same thing you did: just bow out of the debate completely. Not a big deal for a web forum. But disastrous if you’re trying to seek the truth in a scientific debate. The militants are harming everyone with their behavior, whether trans or otherwise. But it’s very difficult to change that kind of atmosphere once established. Thankfully, the NHS has started to make some changes in response.

5

I thought it’s exactly like that; that, if someone identifies as a woman or as a man, the appropriate response is a nonchalant shrug.

Have I been doing it wrong?

6

I think the issue is with androgynous people (using that term broadly) and them getting angry if you guess the wrong pronoun when addressing them.

7

I think displaying your own pronouns should be optional. Some people may not be ready to publicly announce that despite being born he/him/his they are now she/her/hers or vice-versa or they/them/theirs or x/y/z. One organization I belong to is all about putting your pronouns on your conference badge but they do, as an afterthought, allow you to not have your pronouns publicly displayed. Anyways at dinner one night, one of the attendees had us go around the table and tell everyone
Name
Pronouns
One fun thing we are doing in 2024
If you did not give your pronouns, she and a few others at the table would insist. I considered protesting by saying “he/her/its depending on how much I’ve had to drink” but that would have been offensive, right? But bullying people into using their(?) pronouns is not, right?

8

As to this little piece right here, I’m going to cite a post I made yesterday in a thread about veganism and militancy that touches on this point. It might shed some light for the OP or it might not.

Many posts in that thread amount to a discussion of the effectiveness of various ways to push for acceptance of [whatever] minority interest. The OP may find something of value in the whole thread.

9

Certainly. I agree.

I think the OP is on about people who will complain if someone gets their gender wrong.

10

I miss the days when the rules were simple. It used to be, Miss Manners would tell you that the proper way to refer to someone was the way they asked you to refer to them. A nice, simple, rule that covered all situations. But now, some folks are trying to come up with new rules, that in some cases (and they’re never exactly clear just what cases), you’re supposed to refer to some people in ways that they don’t ask you to. That’s way too complicated; I’ll stick with the old-fashioned rule, thank you.

11

Jeez get an editor.

12

Nope, that’s perfect.

This is like the “all vegans are obnoxious” thread. (Or the related claims that all Christians are obnoxiously pushing their religion. Or that all atheists obviously assault religion.) The factual basis of the complaint is false. The enormous majority of trans individuals are happy to quietly correct your mistake and let the conversation continue. So long as you make a good faith effort to try and use the correct name and pronoun once you’ve been informed, most are also tolerant of occasional lapses.

(And that majority really can’t do anything about the obnoxious minority.)

Typical case: I’m currently staying at the house if a friend with and trans son. And last night he was referring to something that happened before the man came out as male and said, “…she, i mean he…” and continued on with his story. And that’s totally fine with his son, and with the vast majority of trans people.

13

Can I assume the positive changes you are referring include banning puberty blockers? And that the vilification and name-calling has to do with the fact that the majority of pediatric and trans health associations and not changing their recommendations in response to this flawed and biased report?

14

If you want to learn more, and don’t just want to complain, I’m happy to help. I’m not trans, but hang out in trans circles. We also have many actual trans members on this board, and my guess is that they are also happy to help if you hope to learn more. It can be tiring to answer the same questions over and over. So any one person might not want to deal at any particular moment. But there are enough folks here that I’m sure you can get any help you want.

15

I assume you are cis an present as such based on this post.

Everyone “knows” your pronouns at a glance, it’s easy for you. It’s easy for me too, I look like someone of my gender.

I’m curious, at your conference, whether the people refusing to give their pronouns were doing so to avoid being “outed” or they were cis people thinking they’re making a political point? The idea that it might be “bullying” to ask a cis person their pronouns is absurd; these people accept their gendered pronouns in social situations every day, but suddenly saying it out loud is a problem?

A trans person who isn’t ready to be out will just use the pronouns people think they already use. Someone who is out will use different ones, and the response is just to accept that and try to remember to use them, and apologize (sincerely) if you make a mistake later. If this hypothetical person goes off in a rage, you step back; bullying isn’t ok no matter what the subject.

My pronouns are in my email at work, even though even my name codes to my gender. I like to think it’s a signal that I’m an ally; I’m open to whatever pronouns people want to use.

16

Best practice is to not require that people give their pronouns. Also, if you are cis and confident in you gender, best practice is to offer up your own pronouns, as an invitation for others to share, and also as an indication that you are aware that pronouns aren’t always immediately obvious. Putting them on your name badge is a very low-key way of doing this, as it clearly doesn’t demand a response.

I am personally NOT really confident in my gender, and in the heavily trans group i socialize in, my name tag says, “any pronouns”. Most people use “she”, as i was assigned female at birth and look mostly female. But I’ve had people refer to me as “he”, “they”, and “ze”, and so long as it is in good faith, I’m fine with all of those.

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You started out “I assume” and that’s the problem. Maybe I am transgendered but still closeted or maybe I’m transitioning or maybe I don’t know where on the gender-spectrum I am so why should I be obligated to give out my pronouns that I don’t agree with or maybe I don’t even know what my pronouns are. Even if I am as cis as Ryan Gosling’s Ken, that doesn’t mean everyone at the table may be comfortable sharing pronouns.

Again, how do you know who at the table is cis?

So lie about who they are? Or push them into the closet? A person should not be obligated to choose between lying/hiding who they are and being forced to reveal something they are not ready to make public.

But apparently not open to people not using pronouns.

18

See, I don’t get what’s so hard about this. How is it hard to distinguish between those two subjects? Where’s the equivalency? “It’s bad to beat transpeople up” on the one hand and “If it’s a Republican Governor purporting to ‘protect children’, the reality is they are probably making life worse for children as a cheap political ploy” on the other. Bam. Easy. If you don’t want to comment on the latter at work because you fear how thin-skinned your more conservative colleagues might be, then fair enough. But, again, totally not hard. I especially don’t see how you could blame supposedly militant transgender rights activists for the latter. The state has real power to fuck people’s lives up. To the point that, transgender and other marginalized people far too often don’t even have full autonomy over their own lives (let alone this fantastical control over other people’s lives that you seem to imagine) due to the very same state interference.

Again, totally not hard.

19

I “assumed” to frame my response. This is an anonymous message board, I don’t know a thing about you.

For literally any interaction, the person I’m speaking with can be at any phase of dealing with their gender identity. I don’t know, I can’t tell, and it is on you to tell me or signal to me what you’d prefer. Most people do present as one gender or another, so the “default” pronoun assumptions are accurate, but otherwise I’ll just use “they/them” for someone I don’t really know, or I’ll straight up ask. If you tell me next week you’ve changed your mind and prefer something else, I’ll shrug it off and do my best to adapt. It’s not a big deal at all.

The English language uses pronouns all the time to communicate with. They aren’t some “new” thing being introduced to confuse people.

As far as I’m concerned it’s the same trouble to remember as whether Nicolas wants to be called Nick or whether Alexandra wants to be called Sandy. I can be quite forgetful about things, but I just do my best, and I’ve never had any conflict because of it.

20

Do you not actually know what pronouns are? You use them everyday, as does everyone else who speaks the English language. It would be really really hard and impractical for someone to not use pronouns.