There is a context to my statement that was in my first post.
I feel like a conference where everyone is supposed to have their pronouns on their ID badges is trying to make a political point. The same goes for an event where you’re asked to introduce yourself by including your preferred pronouns. I’m not arguing it’s a good or bad thing, but quite clearly the organizers are trying to make a point. I’ve been to a lot of conferences both as a museum professional and an HR professional and none of them have asked me to include pronouns on my badge or when I introduce myself.
The idea that identity is political is such a problem. The entire point of a name tag is to communicate how you want to be addressed. That’s it, there’s nothing more to it.
People just want to exist in public with some measure of comfort.
I voluntarily provide my pronouns because it’s the right thing to do, not because it’s “political” although based on my reading of some politicians, “doing the right thing” isn’t something they believe in.
No I do not know what pronouns are because I am apparently very stupid.
When I refer to myself using pronouns I use I/me/my/mine because they are first-person pronouns. The pronouns we are referring to are third-person pronouns. How often do people refer to themselves using third-person pronouns except in gender self-identification?
But not voluntarily providing your pronouns is not the right thing to do? I’m really trying to figure out if you do or do not believe that a person should be harassed into giving a set of pronouns if they for whatever reason do not want to give them.
They generally don’t, of course. But, informing others about one’s preferred third-person pronouns, particularly if your preferred third-person pronouns are not what would be generally assumed by society, is what we’re talking about here.
That was my point to mnemosyne and Eyebrows_0f_Doom. We are discussing very specific uses of pronouns that fall outside of ordinary usage and their retort is You’re Confused. People use pronouns every day.
Then I would use “they/them”, as I’ve said, if I needed to refer to a person who didn’t want to provide any pronouns at all.
What do your loved ones say when discussing you? “Saint_Cad is coming to visit, [pronoun] will be here around noon and [pronoun] is bringing hot dogs for the BBQ. [Pronoun] us bringing their new partner, Sam. [Sam’s pronoun] works as an accountant”.
I’ll use “they/them” unless I have reason to believe you want me to use something else. If that upsets you, please tell me what else to use. That’s all this conversation is about.
I really don’t understand the fuss. It’s not a rendering of judgment on you, it’s just a means to facilitate conversation.
To be fair to transgender, non-binary, or other gender non-comforming individuals, it can be difficult to have a conversation with people because you often times don’t know if they’re acting in good faith. Take the issue of transgender girls in sports. Many critics don’t give a damn about girl’s sports and are simply using the issue as a club to hurt trans children and trans people at large. There are legitimate conversations to be had but with so many acting it bad faith it’s hard to have them.
Vegans are in a similar spot. A lot of them have to put up with all sorts of stupid questions or people tricking them into eating meat. I imagine that kind of thing wears thin after a while. Some vegans are smug assholes but then a lot of people are condescending to vegans.
I think (not sure) the fuss is people who are not binary (male/female) get tired of the assumption embedded in the culture that there are only two options.
Oh, that I can understand! I’m sure it can be exhausting and wear thin after a while. But in my experience, these are people who are pleased to provide pronouns when asked or given the opportunity.
I’m wondering why cis people think providing pronouns is some sort of burden; the people I’ve encountered who are “against pronouns” tend to be cis-het, and that’s the basis of my position in this thread.
The fuss is: if I or anyone else choose not to reveal pronouns to professionals we work with (use of family is a different issue) that they should not pressure me into giving pronouns. Giving pronouns should be voluntary, not compulsory.
What if instead of genders it were something else that fellow professionals badgered you into revealing something that was “obvious”. If we are having dinner at the same table at a conference, is there no fuss if I badgered you into telling me your age? Your weight? (assuming you are a woman) Your bra size? Hey, I’m just facilitating conversation.\
Sigh, because not everyone that chooses to not reveal pronouns is cis. And why do YOU get to decide what is a burden for me. Hey it’s not a burden for you to describe to me what underwear you are wearing but I bet most people would say, if they don’t want to answer, that’s their choice not yours.
Never mind. Ninaj-ed thoroughly.
My understanding is that it’s useful, for those who are cisgender, but who wish to be supportive, and who want to help normalize sharing of one’s preferred pronouns, to do so, even if their preferred pronouns are likely intuitively obvious. And, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to help people understand why this can be important.
But, to force or bully someone into doing so, especially in a work setting, is unacceptable, IMO.
At which point we get to the (usually cis-het and mostly male) offenderati who consider being asked nicely once to be bullying. Since their natural response (“F*** you and your F***ing pronouns”) is likely to be unpopular with the asker.
It’s gonna take some time for society to adjust to the changing world. Everybody needs to practice some tolerance for the time being.
Then we go back to using neutral terms.
The English language uses pronouns, we can’t really avoid it without a major overhaul of the language. The need to use them will happen at one point or another, unlike the need to discuss anything else about a person. So, I will use neutral pronouns or ones that have been positively signaled to me to use (most of the time it’s super obvious) and that’s that.
Pronouns are about gender identity, but they’re the part we show on the outside. Giving you my street address doesn’t give you free access to my home, but it does help you find me if you need to.
If you refuse to “give your pronouns” then accept neutral ones.
Which was not the situation I am discussing. It was hey let’s go around the table with your name, where you work, your pronouns and your exciting 2024 adventure.
Now at this point, I would question why pronouns were included in that list anyways. If a person did not say their pronouns it may not have been a protest. Maybe the person didn’t think to say it since it is not a normal ice-breaker question. If they didn’t multiple people at the table told (not asked) them to give their pronouns. The tone felt very much “not optional”.
ISTM the OP is meeting people who are more cranky about pronouns. I agree most are as you describe (my experience too). But there is always that fringe who gets all the Instagram and TikTok vids. The nice, polite people calmly correcting someone on how they want to be addressed (most of them) don’t get the clicks.
Which is why I think the OP should re-evaluate how worried they need to be about this (i.e. not much…make a good faith effort and that should be enough in most cases).
Except in the gender-spectrum they/them/theirs has meaning and is not neutral.
And again you miss the entire point. If I choose not to give out pronouns to label myself then I should not be pressured into giving out pronouns and it is not open for you to judge. If I ask your address and you don’t want to give it, is that your right or should I pressure you until you do give it to me?