I think a lot of people are conditioned to get the knives out and go to war when it comes to disagreements in online spaces. This is even true on message boards where there is largely a consensus but minor disagreements over why or how lead to online brawls.
Treating junk science as legitimate research is also not conductive to a healthy discussion. At the very least, a non-peer reviewed study released at the behest of a struggling administration, that just happens to justify that administration’s consistent fearmongering about a small minority should be viewed highly skeptically.
That would be the normal case for something like this but I don’t believe this person holds such views. I don’t believe their pronoun spec was in complete earnest either, but I think it came from somewhere other than right wing transphobia.
What scientific research does one need to read in order to be convinced to treat transgender individuals with basic human dignity?
Does it need to come from a Musk owned organization?
She did, by pointing a few while looking at other published criticism.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2328249
Moderating:
Commenting superfluously on someone else’s posting style is not helpful in a sensitive discussion. Let’s not do this.
Consumer Bank Association?
Canadian Basketball Association?
A little acronym consideration please or don’t be arsed if I get it wrong.
Can’t be arsed
I have one difficulty concerning (not about) a trans friend. I “met” her on line, learned her name, etc. That was all easy. I didn’t know she was trans at the time. The problem is she works on the road so her home address is still her parents’ house. But her mother still refers to her as him and by her original (actually pretty unisex) name though that is not the name she uses. Her mother gets upset if I ask to speak to [new name] or her, so I try to remember to ask for [old name] or him. It’s just difficult changing mental gears.
I can explain this. I am not secure in my gender. I was assigned female at birth, but I’ve never really felt comfortably female. “Transgender” wasn’t a thing when i was young, but i always felt i fit in better with the boys than with the girls, except briefly in middle school when, to be completely honest, i didn’t fit in with anyone.
So i like to present my name, and my occupation, and my hobbies. My professional interests or personal preferences…Those are all aspects of my self i am comfortable with and like to share. And i really don’t want to present my pronouns in front of those more important and comfortable aspects of myself.
If you press me, I’m usually addressed as “she”, and that’s fine. I’m also butch enough that (especially over the phone or bundled in winter clothes) i am sometimes addressed as “sir”. I’m fine with that, too. Some of my friends call me “they”, which maybe I’d prefer if i were younger, and I’ve been referred to as “ze”. Those are okay, too. But mostly, i want you to think of me on ways that don’t center on gender. So having it be the very second thing you learn about me, right after my name, is really uncomfortable for me.
This.
Yes, but the pronouns are usually optional. But yes, this does come up a lot in some circles.
And honestly, in my profession (actuarial) a huge kerfuffle broke out when a bunch of cranky old men got offended that people were using pronouns in name tags and bylines. And at about the same time, my company offered up a (voluntary) pronoun field in our official info.
On the one hand, i really didn’t want to enter “she”. And on the other, i really didn’t want to side with the cranky old men. So i ended up entering “any pronouns”, which i hope is taken as supportive, and not as mocking.
I’m sorry, but this is your privilege of being secure in your gender speaking.
Exactly this! And that’s why it’s a thing that allies do. And that i encourage most of you to do, even though I’m uncomfortable doing it myself.
I promise not to. I’m fact, so long as you address me kindly and respectfully, go ahead and use whatever pronouns you like.
No, you don’t. But you are exactly the sort of person, completely secure in your own gender, who can be most helpful by volunteering your pronouns. To normalize the act of volunteering pronouns. You don’t have to. And i defend your right to not do so. And also, i urge you to voluntarily do so, as an act of kindness and acceptance.
Of course there are people who, through their dress, accessories (hair, makeup, etc) are absolutely unambiguously the gender they appear to be. I’m one of them; no one has ever thought I was anything other than female by looking at me. And assuming, therefore, that I use female pronouns is fine; I acknowledge that there’s the verbal express way of asking, but that gender can and does get signaled otherwise.
Now, the element there is that no one can know by looking at me whether or not I actually identify as non-binary. That’s something I’d have to offer up, if I felt comfortable to do so, and that’s where the structure of “ceremony” can allow for that opportunity.
On the other hand, there are people whose gender you cannot read by looking at them. Long hair, makeup, jeans and T-shirt, high heels and a glorious moustache, measuring 6’3" or maybe 5’0"; do you code them based on your interpretation of their physique? On their hair? Their shoes? Their clothes? Best just to ask I think.
But what I’m finding very strange indeed is the archetypal male (or female) who is 100% unambiguously A MAN being bothered to just acknowledge that he IS A MAN by confirming his pronouns. Why would that upset him? Why not participate, since participating means signaling a welcome to others to use "their* true pronouns if they feel safe to do so? The only reasons I can come up with don’t make this Man look very good, honestly.
And if I were being kind and respectful I would address you as you prefer to be addressed. It does not matter that I like you. All people deserve that (I think).
Really, honestly and sincerely, this is “very strange” to you? That someone is annoyed by being asked to confirm information that’s visually unambiguous and obvious, information that nobody could possibly get wrong?
Honestly that’s not the most annoying part of it. The annoying part of it is this:
And there’s the value judgment we all know is hiding in there. I’m obviously and unmistakably a man, you freely stipulate this. I’m not concealing anything from anyone, I’m not criticizing anyone who offers their own pronouns, nor refusing to use them. But that’s not enough. If I don’t conform to the ceremony of repeating obvious information, it Looks Bad in ways that are too horrendous for you to even speak.
Here’s a ritual for you: declare your pronouns if you wish, and I will respect them. I will not declare mine, and you will respect that. Does that work for you? Of course not. Respect is not enough. You want full conformity.
Because people that present with the archetype you apparently think only applies to folks just like you might not be just like you?
I agree with this.
Therapist at PT dressed androgenously. I knew she was a female by body type. They clearly wanted to appear other than. So…with a kind tone I ask her pronoun preference. They said, snappishly “I guess you are cis?”
I just stopped talking then.
There’s never a shortage of assholes. Doesn’t absolve anyone of acting with decency regardless, though.
As I said:
If you look at me and say “gosh, I have no idea in the world what that person’s pronouns could possibly be, I’m lost at sea if they don’t declare”, that is 100% a you problem, not a me problem. And yet, I will answer politely if asked. But I will never pre-emptively declare my own pronouns just because others want to pretend they can’t see what I am.
You know what else is difficult and confusing? Everyone having a different name and expecting me to keep it all straight. From now on, I’m just going to call everybody Betty and it’s their problem if they think I should call them something else.
Honey, I’ve known plenty of obvious and unmistakable men, as hairy and beefy as anyone you’d find, who were as queer as a three dollar bill. You might want to examine those assumptions of yours.
It’s fine to list your pronouns. It’s fine to not list your pronouns, as long as you don’t make a big deal of it if someone gets your pronouns wrong. IMO.