The Great Pronoun Shift

A friend of mine* has just come out as transsexual - that is, this friend has started to openly self-identify as a member of the gender usually possessing a different genital configuration. Trying to pass in public, hormones, surgeries, and all that are still far off in the future. But I, as a supportive liberal person, am fully prepared to do everything possible to help my friend cope and feel accepted at any stage. That means treating my friend as if all public perceptions and naughty bits are as they will hopefully be eventually.

But Christ Almighty, the PRONOUNS! It’s so difficult! I’ve been using the same ones for so long! I have no difficulty accepting someone as an unusually tall woman with some facial hair issues or a rather delicate-featured man… few of my friends are perfect models of masculinity or femininity anyway. But pronouns are HARD! I’ve been using the same ones forever and my mind has a great deal of trouble switching over.

Stupid pronouns.
Stupid genders.
Stupid English language.
:mad:

*Qadgop, you may or may not know or know of this person. I ain’t tellin’. :wink:

As you get used to it you may find that the hardest part is seeing people who are less sensitive (or don’t know the person in question) using the wrong pronouns in addressing your friend.

(This second-hand from a friend who’s close friends with a pre-operative M-to-F transsexual–apparently it was crushing to watch this friend deal with acquaintances new and old who refused to accomodate the her definition of her gender or who played the pronoun game by refusing to refer to her by any term other than her name–admittedly it was the female name that she had adopted, but it was obvious that certain people were going to great lengths to avoid saying “she” or “her.”)

Don’t get me started on pronouns! Pronouns are our friends!

"Now I could tell you Rafaella Gabriela and Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla and Albert Andreas Armadillo found an aardvark, a kangaroo, and a rhinoceros. And now that aardvark and that kangaroo and that rhinoceros belong respectively to Rafaella Gabriela Sarsaparilla and Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla and Albert Andreas Armadillo!

Whew! Because of pronouns I can say, in this way:
‘WE found THEM and THEY found US, and now THEY are OURS and WE’re so happy.’ Thank you pronouns! "

-Kathy Mandary

I’m sure it would be a lot harder in a language where adjectives and stuff have gender agreement, like French or Spanish. I’d be interested to hear the experiences of people transitioning in countries that speak languages like that.

It may not be easy, but as you know, it is very important . Keep trying and sincerly apologize for any slips you make.

Are there other languages in which this would be easier?

The proper pronoun to address a transsexual is “you.” Unless you’re a conservative Quaker. :wink:

As lee said, merely making an effort to always try to use the proper “new” pronoun in referring to the person by his/her new gender is laudable. One thought – apologize in advance for any neglect, couching it in the same format as if you’d known a single woman for many years and she suddenly married and adopted her husband’s name – you just might refer to her by her maiden name, not out of insultingness but out of force of habit. A solid friendship is not going to be injured by such inadvertent slips.

S’trewth. Before I started cross-dressing, I fully expected people to still call me “he.” During the transition period, I tried to realize how difficult it was for old friends and relatives to remember “she” and my new name. It cut like a knife, but I realized they were trying their best to deal with an awkward situation.

My grandfather, on the other hand, continued calling me “he” for years, till I decided never to see him again. It’s a drastic way to find out who our real friends are, but it works . . .

Tagalog pronouns are gender neutral. Filipinos sometimes cause confusion when speaking English by indiscriminately mixing “he” and “she”.

sturmhauke mentioned Tagalog, and I believe that in at least some of the Chinese dialects the same pronouns are used for both men and women. This is true in Hungarian and Japanese as well. My English students sometimes confuse “he” and “she” when speaking English just as sturmhauke described.

En español, él and ella are he and she, respectively, and him and her are lo and la, but all the 3rd person possessives (his, her, their) are covered by su, and the third person reflexive (himself, herself, themselves) is se. Which is to say, it’s halfway easier. German is more or less the same as English, except the third person reflexive is sich for both genders.

Elfbabe As has already been said, just make it clear that you accept this person as their declared gender and any pronoun mistakes on your part are due purely to habit, the same way many people keep writing the wrong year on checks through January and February.

Reminds me of the story told by an old friend who was headmaster of a private school in England in the 70s. He had set one afternoon aside to interview parents of prospective new pupils. One of the boys was the son of the woman who had once been James Morris (and was now Jan) and his wife. Unfortunately, the HM had not been informed in advance of the unusual domestic arrangement, so when his secretary showed in the next couple, his jaw nearly hit the floor. He said he had the greatest difficulty in not addressing all his comments to Mrs Morris, as he was completely stumped as to how to address the boy’s father, now sitting in a dress before him.

In German you can’t attempt to get around gendered pronouns by using terms like “my friend” like you can in English, though. It’s got to be either “mein Freund” (masc) or “meine Freundin” (fem). When I first began studying German I briefly wondered if this made it more difficult to be an honest-but-not-boldly-open homosexual in Germany, since there seemed to be no easy way to refer to your “lover” or “partner” without revealing their gender. Although even in English these non-gender-specific terms are so rarely used by heterosexuals that in many cases I think one might as well come out and use a same-sex gendered pronoun anyway.

Japanese speakers tend to avoid using “pronouns” in their speech at all. If the subject is understood, it is often left out. The reason I put “pronouns” in quotes is that Japanese doesn’t really have pronouns. There are nouns that function a bit like pronouns but aren’t quite pronouns. This sometimes leads to weird situations. Once, when I was listening in on a conversation at a neighboring table in a restaurant, I heard one guy ask his friend “Wait, who are you talking about?” They’d actually forgotten the subject of their conversation.

Many words that could be translated as “you” are subtly or overtly rude in Japanese so they are often avoided completely. Kimi is gender neutral and is neutrally polite. Anata, also gender neutral, is used only between intimates. Using it with someone you don’t know is kind of rude, with a feeling like saying “dearest darling” in a sarcastic tone in English. Kisama, omae, and anta are a few more words that could be “you” but are insulting in various degrees.

The differences between Japanese used by men and women include self-referential words that show the level of respect show to the listener by the speaker as well as having some gender loading. For example atashi (casual, friendly) is a very female version of “I” and boku (neutral to friendly/casual) or ore (very casual to crude) are used only by men. The gender neutral words watashi and watakushi are polite and sound a bit distant when used in casual circumstances.

There are a lot more differences between women’s Japanese and men’s Japanese, some of which are used to emphasize the maleness or femaleness of the person in a particular situation. The differences are pronounced enough that a line of printed dialogue, if casual enough, can be taken out of context and will often still provide enough information to tell whether the speaker is a man or woman. If a guy starts a sentence with atashi and ends it with the particle wa it’s a pretty good bet that he’s either gay or making fun of okama-chan (effeminate gay men).

Related to this subject, yuu-hafu (New Half) are well-known and surprisingly widespread in Japan. I’ve even run into a couple in the bar district of my smallish town in the country. This word is used for trans-gender or transvestite physical males who present as female. New Half sometimes work in specialty hostess bars catering to men (and sometimes women) who have a kink for them. Cross-dressing is a relatively common phenomenon in Japan and has been for centuries. There were celebrated cross-dressing male oiran (high-class prostitutes) who were written about in the Edo Era, and they may be mentioned even earlier. I don’t know as much about Japanese history as I’d like.

Around the same time an edict prohibited women from performing in kabuki for basically the same reasons women were banned from the stage in England. This began the tradition of males performing female roles in kabuki that persists to this day. I can’t remember the source, but a kabuki affectionado is said to have stated that a woman could not play a woman’s role as convincingly as a man could.

A fairly recent takeoff on that idea is takarazuka, where women play all the roles in a Broadway musical style production. The groupies for these shows are almost entirely female, and they can be extremely rabid fans of the genre.

Fortunately for me, my friend only told ANYONE about this a couple of days ago, and is hence still in the stage where the old pronoun set is just normal and the correct pronoun set causes extreme giddiness and glee. So hopefully I’ll be forgiven my errors for a while yet while I reprogram my brain properly.

Part of the problem may be that my friend’s original first name is not being changed, at least for now. I’d give more details on that, and all of this, really, but I’m concerned for my friend’s privacy and hence won’t be putting much info out publicly.

My Japanese is pretty lousy (in much the same way that Bill Gates is “pretty rich”), but some time ago my Japanese-speaking American co-worker was explaining this same topic to me. He added that women sometimes do use the masculine personal pronouns, but that this is very rare. “I knew one girl in Tokyo who did, but she was a lesbian. And Rie does too.”

Rie was another coworker who was listening in on our conversation. “I do not!” she said. “You do so!” “I do not! I never have!” “You do so, and I can prove it!” He whipped out his cellphone, pulled up an old text message from her, and sure enough she had. So she had to switch to denying that she used that form often, and she wouldn’t have done it with him except that they knew each other well and his Japanese wasn’t that good anyway.

Yoko, the Office Bad Girl, added that she used masculine personal pronouns all the time. She also prefers being addressed with the -kun suffix, which I believe this is not unheard of for women in business but she’s the only one I personally know who does so. I think it’s all a part of her Bad Girl image.

You’re correct, and I can’t believe I forgot this. In fact, when I was learning German, I wondered the same thing. Speakers of gendered languages can’t easily hide the gender of people they’re referring to in the third person.

If you listen to much gay music, a lot of artists (before they were out) have written music in the second person as opposed to third person, because that makes it easier to hide that they are singing to a member of the same gender. However, apparently, you can’t do even that in Japanese, because of the gendered second person “pronouns”. That must be frustrating – if you want to stay closeted, you have to lie; if you don’t want to lie, you have to out yourself.

I can’t tell you how pleased I am that I wasn’t the only one. :cool:

*I wonder if native speakers have some other way to skirt the issue. If anyone out there knows, I’m curious!

Actually, like I said in an earlier post, you leave any pronoun-like things out of speech most of the time in Japanese. It sometimes becomes very confusing who is doing what to whom. When you say, “I love you!” for instance, you could say: aishiteiru (lit. “loving”). If you have to add, anata ga that implies that you especially love him/her, which could imply that you love someone else too. Anata, which is the most common intimate second person “pronoun” I know of is gender neutral.

There’s no gender marking on verbs, unlike some languages, and saying any second-person “pronoun” is potentially impolite so they are avoided. Most of the second person words are non-gendered. First person is where it’s easy to tell whether the speaker is male or female in casual speech, and that depends on the speaker and how much gender loading they want to put in their language. If you are male and you want to be effeminate you can use female speech, but that’s just advertising your sexuality. You don’t have to do that if you don’t want to. Formally neutral speech (which is definitely more common in Japanese society) is almost completely gender neutral.

You could easily avoid discussing the gender of your lover, especially since in Japanese culture you’re not supposed to discuss things like that with anyone anyway. I know a (hetero) married couple whose parents didn’t even know they were dating until they informed their respective families that they were going to send out wedding announcements.

You only inform people of your private life if you want it to become public knowledge. Saying something about it or otherwise drawing attention to your actions makes it impossible for people to ignore what you’re doing. Japan is a shame-based culture. If you don’t get caught doing it, it’s okay. Even if you get caught doing it, people can pretend it didn’t happen unless it was a conspicuous event. At those New Half hostess bars I mentioned earlier, everyone cooperates to maintain the social illusion that there is nothing unusual about the hostesses.