Maybe the fact that he taught a class in it a few years ago.
But really, I know nothing more about the guy. It just seems highly unlikely from his CV that he’s the kind of “bigot” or “asshole” that Miller automatically claims he must be.
When I was in high school, in Biology II, we went through a long section on evolution. Right at the end, the teacher (who had done a good job with the material, I thought) announced that he was actually a young earth creationist.
[QUOTE=Miller]
it wasn’t a case of me going, “They’re assholes because they disagree with me on this specific issue!”
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wolfpup, quoting the above]
It’s always a good idea to judge someone’s entire life worth on whether or not one agrees with them on the lexicography of a particular word.
[/QUOTE]
Good. Good work. This is smart conversation; worth having.
I wonder what Christopher Freeman, renowned expert on what words mean when people say them, would have to say to his acolyte.
I started typing out a post in which I said that what you are saying is complete hogwash. Then I reconsidered. It’s only 99% hogwash.
It’s mainly hogwash because (a) there is no thought police, and there is no gender police, and (b) people who are struggling every day for basic rights like not getting killed aren’t going to waste their time with the kind of elaborate and lengthy secret conspiracies you’re talking about, and (c) the best analogy I can think of is interracial relationships. It used to be accepted that interracial relationships were horrifyingly bad. Then things changed. Now, not only are interracial relationships entirely OK for most of society, someone who claims that interracial relationships are bad would be (rightfully) piled onto as a bigot. But you know what? Someone who says “hey, I strongly support the right of people who wish to be in interracial relationships, but I personally just don’t find people of certain races physically attractive, for whatever reason” isn’t really going to be more than blinked at. And the difference between the races is trivial compared to the differences between a ciswoman and a transwoman.
All of that said, sure, I think it’s at least possible that in a few decades it will be frowned on, possibly very strongly frowned on, to differentiate between trans- and cis- in dating. And it’s also possible that it will be frowned on to eat meat. Who knows? Society changes. But things like that never get frowned on because a tiny fringe of liberal arts professors and social justice warriors shriek about things in whatever fashion you are imagining, they change because a majority of the populace changes. Is it possible society will change so drastically in its opinion of transfolk that even romantic preference for cis over trans would be viewed as unacceptable bigotry? Not any time soon, and not due to some secret conspiracy that you alone have recognized and are standing up against, but… maybe? In 50 years? And if it does, well, that’s probably a good thing on the whole.
But it still has nothing to do with whether or not “cisgender” is a slur.
Which makes it easier to argue that “tranny” is offensive than it is to argue that “ladyboy” is offensive. But if I really wanted to know whether “ladyboy” was offensive, I would do a few things. Sure I’d look it up in a dictionary. But I’d also google, and find discussions like this one on reddit, in which there’s basically 100% consensus that it’s offensive (along with a discussion of Thailand being an exception), and I’d ask experts, such as Una Persson. Although I haven’t done more than casual research into the question (because it’s not like I was about to start referring to people as “ladyboy” for some reason), the evidence, to me, is coming down strongly on the side of “offensive”.
One other bit of circumstantial evidence: The term just sounds offensive. “Boy” implies child, small, weak; and of course also has its obsolete racial usage. And “lady”, while not inherently offensive, is definitely a loaded term. Add that to the fact that there tend to be far more insulting terms than non-insulting terms for members of oppressed minorities (think about it… there are WAY more insulting terms for black people than non-insulting), and my evidence-coming-down-strongly approaches a near certainty.
Maybe I’m being a bit pedantic here, but there’s a huge difference between what he’s saying and what you are saying. He’s saying that the word is problematic because it perpetuates a false dichotomy. You’re saying that it’s an insulting slur. Those are not even remotely the same. He is not agreeing with you that you should be insulted when someone calls you cisgender, that it’s an insult. He’s saying that you should gently correct them because their language is not sufficiently advanced as to cover the full spectrum of human sexuality and identity, or what have you. (Assuming I’m reading that paragraph correctly.)
(And, for the record, I don’t agree with his point, but it’s also silly to claim that his point is evidence on your side of the is-cisgender-a-slur argument.)
It’s like conservatives who argue that we should get rid of Obamacare by pointing out what a large percentage of the population isn’t happy with it, when of course large bunches of those people aren’t happy with it because it doesn’t go far enough. They’re not really on your side.
This is university, not high school where a subject might be taught by rote. At this level professors generally have a lot of flexibility in creating a course syllabus that matches their research interests, as Freeman apparently did.
But again, I know nothing more about the guy than what I’ve found on the Internet. I just find it remarkable that arguments are now being advanced here suggesting that he might be an asshole just to fit Miller’s preconceived prejudice. Maybe he is. But the salient point is that all the evidence indicates otherwise. It suggests that he seems to be a fighter for LGBT rights and equality, and that Miller’s criteria for judging an asshole – like their approach to language – are prejudiced bullshit.
He said literally the opposite about his criteria for judging an asshole. Actually literally literally.
I’m unconvinced, given that I’ve been exposed to classes taught by humanities professors which completely missed the mark. One would think if he had any special Q&E on the subject it would be listed on his resume; I don’t see a single thing there. However, I understand your point.
Sure. And I wonder “What will hypocritical dickhead Miller think about this issue?” And yep, it was about par for the course.
I bet if Chris Freeman joined this message board and started posting, Miller would first see what the other members of the board who are gay, bisexual, or transgender thought first. THEN he would pick whatever side that was, and argue ignorantly and irrationally for it, as a way of “proving” how Pro-whatever he is :rolleyes:
Fair enough. In case you think otherwise, I am not arguing for the right to call someone a “ladyboy”
I’m trying to understand how a word like “ladyboy” can be offensive simply because a few posters SAY its offensive, while at the same time, “cisgender” is NOT offensive even though a few posters SAY its offensive. It actually has nothing to do with transgender people at all.
And yes, I recognize that there exists words across the world that are offensive to the people there. However, my question, as you somewhat pointed out, is “Would Miller warn somebody for calling another person a ‘muxe’ on this message board?” The only way I would know that “muxe” is offensive is the fact the YOU said so, just now. Does that make it offensive?
And as a serious question (no sarcasm), what kind of outreach did you do for the transgender women in Bangkok? Did you just give them money? Find them jobs? I’m not sure what an American going to Thailand to help prostitutes can do besides give them money.
Are you asking specifically about these two words? Or are you asking a more theoretical question about how one determines offensiveness of words? Or both?
I met with transgender prostitutes. I also met with transgender shop girls, transgender beauticians, transgender hotel staff, and transgender consulting engineers. I interviewed them and spoke to them about their lives, asked them what resources were available, asked about their histories, etc. The transgender prostitutes I gave money so they wouldn’t have to work that night I was interviewing them. Outreach means that I went there to learn and to discuss cultural issues. I’m under no illusions that I can create a sea change in the lives of the sex workers there. But what I learned perhaps has helped me work better with the US transgender prostitutes who I have done outreach to here at home.
Oh, please. The only thing you wondered while reading that was, “How does he know about the fork?”
If someone says they prefer to be called a he or she, I’d honor that out of a sense of courtesy. What I WON’T do, which is what the strict policing of the proper pronouns seeks to do in my opinion, is actually view them as the same as a natural born man or woman. And that last is not limited to me, it spans almost the entire sum total of humanity. The primary difference between me and most others in this thread, is I’m explicit about that. I am not hiding my true views from sight like others have.
As for being ignorant of the general lgbt community, guilty. I’m just a gay guy, not a lesbian, not a trans person, just gay. I get the strategy of lumping us all into a larger amalgamation to increase the power of disparate groups, but I don’t really think my experience overlaps much with a trans person at all. I have no conception about what it’s like to feel like I was born into the wrong body. I’m quite comfortable in my own skin. And aside from a smattering of asexual people, the bulk of humanity understands EXACTLY what it’s like to be attracted to men or women or both. Attraction is one of those built in characteristics almost all of us share, even if the targets are of attraction vary based on the individual.
Transgender is not that, it’s some next level shit. We are talking about people that LITERALLY feel they were born into the wrong bodies, that they have the mind and persona of a male or female, but are trapped in opposite sex bodies. How the hell is that related to being gay or lesbian? Because some people used to look down on and discriminate against gays like many still do against trans people?
Ok fine, we can work to minimize discrimination in public, but in the private world, where personal preferences reign supreme, it’s going to be a harder road. I am not going to sit here and LIE to you like some others and pretend that just because I call a trans women “she” I think of her as the same thing, moreso when it comes to trans men. As a gay guy I am not looking to date / be with a trans man, the target is an actual guy that was born that way, not a transplant. Someone above said I was too obsessed with dating, but this is not about just me, this is a larger phenomenon that extends far beyond me, it extends to the core FUTILITY of the project of trying to use language policing to wipe away any and all perceptual differences between trans men and women with the natural born varieties.
Fine. You don’t think of transgendered people as being identical to cis folks. I hate to cissplain, or cisquestion, or cisdiscuss, but… so what? What are you going to do with that feeling?
It stops you from wanting to date transmen? As already discussed, my strong suspicion is that no one objects to that. But does it affect how you interact with them in other ways? Would you refuse to hire them? Not want them to teach or provide daycare for your children? React with violence or slurs if a transman hits on you?
I think (and again, disclaiming that I’m personally not trans, and not an expert on this topic) that you are conflating two positions:
(a) it would be nice if, deep in your heart of hearts, you thought of transmen as “real” men and transwomen as “real” women, in all but the very rare situations where their birth gender actually matters
(b) it’s a crucial matter of fundamental civil rights and human decency that you support full legal rights for trans people
Don’t confuse the level of importance that people place on (a) and (b).
LOfuckingL
Like I’ve said (hundreds of times), listen to SJW idiots and watch your commercial prospects plummet.
Because only liberals get to say what’s “offensive.” Where have you been?
Amazing how you have proven cause and effect there…oh wait, you didn’t.
My company’s stock increased by about 29% the year they added gender identity and gender expression to their policies and procedures manual. And guess what, it wasn’t due to the change either.