I doubt it matters that she slid too. From your description, she had the right of way (being the car on the right in an uncontrolled intersection), which I would think makes any collision automatically your fault. She was only skidding in an attempt to avoid the collision caused by your failure to yield the right of way.
At least the damage was relatively minor and nobody got bent out of shape. 
I have Progressive insurance, this is the first claim I have ever made other than replacing a windshield. My agent told me that they would use the police report, my statement and the other driver’s statement to determine fault (I don’t have a copy of the report yet so I don’t know what it says. If the other driver says the same thing to the insurance company that she told the police, then she admits she also slid on the ice. Since she told the officer that after he wrote the ticket, I don’t know if that will show up on the report or not, though.)
I did tell the agent I received a citation because I figured they would see that on the report anyway, but she did not ask what it was for. She said that from what I described, it did sound like I might not be considered at fault but I am sure that could change based on what the other driver tells her and what the police report says.
The bumper around my headlight is messed up also, and the hood of my car is slightly misaligned, although it still opens and closes. If it was really just the plastic on the headlight, I would fix it myself, but I am thinking any body work and now it is more than my deductable ($500). I don’t know - maybe I shouldn’t have reported it, but wouldn’t the other woman’s insurance be contacting them anyway?
I am not trying to say it was her fault - I guess I am being unclear. But if there are other circumstances in the accident, like the weather, the insurance company can decide that I am not totally at fault for their purposes. Showing that she slid also supports how icy the intersection was, and it was not just me sliding around out there.
I know it is my responsibility to drive safely. Believe me, I live in Michigan, we have snow all winter. I can’t just wait for conditions to improve - I would be waiting until April. Our road just does not get plowed with any regularity, and we live in the city, not out in the middle of nowhere. If I did not drive every time my road was icy, I could not leave my house for half the winter. We are not allowed to put chains or anything on our tires, because it tears up the streets, so we do the best we can and drive slowly. Sometimes there is just no traction on the road. I can’t call in to work and say “I can’t come in because the road is too icy.” Schools here don’t even close unless there are real blizzard conditions. People in Michigan just drive in the snow, we have to.
Anyway - I am not trying to say, wow I am blameless in this accident and it is the other person’s fault! No, just that you know, it was really icy and stuff happens. The other driver realized that, and often officers do too, and hopefully the insurance company will also.
Not in Michigan. We all self-insure. If it were an out of state driver without a no fault policy, or if this had occurred with your Michigan insurance while you were driving out of state, then all that old fashioned who’s-at-fault stuff crops up. Or if you do property damage to something besides a car. There’s one little detail, though…
If the other driver’s insurance company deems you at fault, but doesn’t cover the deductible anyway (that’s another low-cost option), then they can still demand a certain sum from you. It was $400 for a long time, but I think it may be $500 or even $550 now. It’s never been an issue for me, so I don’t know if my property damage coverage would cover it, or if I’d have to pay it out of pocket.
On that note, should something like this ever happen to you again and the other driver is being a jerk and making threats about lawsuits, just blow him off. You can’t be sued for more than the statutory limit (again, non-car property damage, out-of-state, etc., all change this, but for ordinary fender-benders, you’re covered).
You just don’t seem to understand that the weather is not a factor that mitigates your responsibility. If driving conditions are so hazardous as to be unsafe, you should not be driving. If you know that even parked cars will slide down that hill, what in the world were you doing *driving *on it?
I started this thread to find out what exactly the ticket was for, not to argue fault. But, for purposes of my insurance, and as others in the thread have stated, fault can mean different things, and they can and do take weather into account, as my very own insurance agent told me on the phone when I told her what happened, she stated it did NOT sound like they would find me over 50% at fault. I never thought I would say this, but thank goodness for the reasonability of insurance agents.
I will just state again that unless I am going to be homebound for 5 months out of the year, driving down my own street with ice and snow on it is not an option. I have to do it. Maybe in a perfect world others have complete control over whether their street gets plowed, and over their vehicles in ice, snow, tornados and hurricanes, but I live dangerously and actually have the need to dare to leave the house in Michigan winter. I don’t know where you live, but choosing not to drive in snow, in Michigan, is impossible, and yes, things happen because of that. Our neighbors are all aware of the situation and we all frequently help each other out of snowbanks, push each other out of driveways, and up our hill after we slide down it. I guess this means we are all out of control hazards, but we all seem to get along ok.
Under your own responsibility and liability.
I do not believe the law says you should not be driving if you cannot keep the vehicle under control unless you really, really need to get some milk from the grocery store. What you do is your responsibility.
Mike.V found “change lanes to interfere” under the code for “Signals for stopping or turning,” which raises a question: did you signal the turn as you were sliding? Could the citation be for failure to signal?
Velma, do you have studded tires? Did you put chanes on your tires? Either of those are options in places where you have hills and ice/snow. If you’re not using them, you aren’t using due care.
Someone up thread said something to the effect that receiving a citation doesn’t equate to being at fault. Now, I didn’t ever practice in Michigan, so maybe they don’t implement the concept of negligence per se, but in most states, violation of a statute is presumed to equate to negligence, and as long as the injury that results from your statute violation is consistent with what the statute is trying to prevent, you will be considered to have caused the injury from your negligent actions.
Not sure what application this has in a no-fault state to the issue the OP is facing: the categorization of the accident by the insurance company for purposes of payout.
Velma, you know I’m trying to be helpful, but I think the issue that the other posters are having is that you’re unwilling to take responsibility for your actions. Regardless of what the insurance company says, the facts that you’ve stated indicated that you’re at fault. That doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It’s not a personal attack. Your admitting fault (not incompetence or negligence) doesn’t make you less of a person. Would you similarly say its not your fault if you front-ended someone because you were heading west and the sun got in your eyes and you couldn’t see? Would you similarly say that it’s not another driver’s fault if he slid through a stop sign and broadsided you as you passed legally through the intersection? It’s obviously to everyone that someone’s at fault in all of these circumstances.
Stuff happens. Saying that it’s your fault isn’t the same as saying that Velma’s an irresponsible driver that shouldn’t be on the road. I mean look at me: I said I backed into a crane, and it was totally my fault. How the hell could I not see a crane in my rear view mirror? The fact is that I did; I just didn’t see the rotating turret part that was outside the field of view. I’m not an idiot, but I hit a crane and it was my fault (but no negligence).
Studded tires and chains are not generally accepted in the city. They tear up the roads and can get you a fine.
"Question: Are tire chains legal in Michigan?
Answer: MCL 257.710 of the Michigan Vehicle Code covers the use of tire chains, and states that a person may “use a tire chain of reasonable proportion upon a vehicle when required for safety because of snow, ice, or other condition tending to cause a vehicle to skid.” If used, the chain must not come in contact with the surface of the roadway. "
The chain must not touch the surface of the roadway - that pretty much negates use in the city. I have never in all my life seen anyone with chains on their tires here in the city.
“These rules state two conditions that must be met for the use of studded tires. Note: to date no manufacturer of tire studs has supplied information to the Michigan Department of Transportation that their product meets or exceeds the required pavement wear specifications.”
Poor Velma. All she’s trying to do, folks, is find out if she can mitigate the situation so she can get a break on the deductible. A part of that is finding out more about what the charge is on the ticket, to see if that’ll affect the determination of the insurance company as to fault. Why is everyone banging on her for responsibility? I’d probably be doing the same thing in her shoes, with the understanding that I gooned things up.
She seems perfectly clear on the responsibility part, IMO. And DSYE, she can’t use chains/studs because the city doesn’t allow them.
Your (i.e., Dopers) determination of fault doesn’t matter. The insurance company’s determination does. If they marry up to what everyone is saying, that’s all well and good, but repeatedly hammering away at her serves no useful purpose. She doesn’t want to discuss fault, and while I understand this is a message board, I don’t understand why people can’t just read her explanations and think “Ok, I don’t agree with that, but let’s see if there’s anything I can do to help with her question…”
What does the fact that it is your own street have to do with it? Are the rules of the road different the closer you are to home?
Nevertheless, you are responsible for controlling your own vehicle. If you cannot operate it safely, you have no business driving. It really is that simple.
If you are all sliding down hills that parked cars cannot cling to, then yes. Somehow I doubt that is the case.
Argh. Ok, I am going to try this one more time, and then I am done with this thread. (Thank you to all who helped me figure out what my ticket was actually written for.)
I NEVER said this accident was not in any way my fault, just that there were circumstances here that may warrant consideration. Ok? My real concern here, and the whole purpose for this thread, was to find out what my ticket was written for, because it was a term I had never heard before and was not on the court website provided to me on my ticket. NOT to argue fault. Again, I am not disputing what happened here, I am not saying it was anyone else’s fault. I don’t know how to make that more clear. I really don’t care if the average person thinks I am the worst driver on the planet or whatever…I only care what my insurance company thinks. “Fault” in this thread is what my insurance company decides it is. After explaining my case to my agent, she did NOT think I would be found “at fault.” I don’t care about any other definition of the term fault, for the purpose of this thread.
on preview - thank god, flyboy! someone understands me
And now I am done.
Christ, the horse is dead and beaten to a pulp, do you feel all high and mighty now?:rolleyes:
Regarding the parked cars, I took that to mean that people driving slid down (or couldn’t make it up) during the night, got stuck, and had to leave their cars there. Not that parked cars just started sliding down.
Velma, that hill sounds terrible and, unlike some people, I know exactly how frustrating it is to have to go somewhere only to find your road hasn’t yet been cleared. Have you complained to the county or town to make sure it get’s cleared/salted/sanded more often?
Apparently she’s gone. All she really had to do to quiet the jerks was say, “You know, I know it’s my fault. There were mitigating circumstances. Will that help? What can I do to reduce my expenses?”
I was/am trying to be helpful, but despite her never having said “it’s not my fault,” she clearly implies that she really believes it wasn’t her fault. The weather and living in Michigan and icy roads and others’ attitudes have nothing to do with establishing fault. The reason we’re beating a dead horse is because it’s frustrating as hell trying to help someone who just won’t admit that they slipped up.
Maybe it’s a bit frustrating, but aren’t we better than this? We’re seriously not able to get past this one problem which isn’t really relevant to the OP? The angle she’s coming from is that the insurance company, for all she knows, may well take into account the bad weather and the fact that the other driver was also sliding at the time of impact. That may just get her to the 50% fault mark. I’m not an insurance adjuster and apparently no one else in this thread is, either, so for all we know she has a point.
The woman sounds totally reasonable and coherent, and she posts well. It’s not like we’re dealing with one of the real crazies on the board. A person can’t start a simple thread (and sometimes even post at all) on this board without the risk of getting the crap kicked out of him/her. That’s why my wife won’t sign up. :rolleyes: This place can be so disappointing sometimes.
Well, here’s the question I was responding to:
That is not about the insurance company.
If she wouldn’t keep reviving it there would be no need to beat it.
Really?
*Our road really is a hazard in the winter. We have had instances in the past when **we woke up to find several parked cars clustered at the bottom of the hill *- they had slid down overnight.(Bolding mine)
Want to give it another try?
I read it the same way as SmellMyWort, perhaps worded imprecisely and in a passive manner, but not inconsistent with someone who’s a little sensitive about assigning blame at the moment.
But she didn’t contradict your comment, so who knows?
I completely understand your point about fault, and I couldn’t agree more. But I’m not sure what you’ve (or anyone else has) gained from this exercise.
Velma, good luck.