No, it’s actually good filmmaking. The parallel structures in the prequel trilogy are the strongest parts of the prequel trilogy, for they both add depth to the prequels and to the classic films. That you’re whining about it indicates that you don’t know jack shit about visual storytelling.
I really don’t care to try to teach you why. Go back to college, major in film. Maybe then you’ll get it.
The reflective elements in ROTS were no greater than the reflective elements in TPM or AOTC.
Close. But wrong.
The history of science fiction is replete with weapons capable of destroying entire planets. The exact specifics of the Death Star are unique to Star Wars… but then, so are the specifics of the Force, but that doesn’t make the Force anything original, either.
Yeah, that was a lame scene.
The fact that you’re a paranoid Sith, part of an order which is constantly trying to kill itself. People often see reflections of themselves in their enemies. Palpatine, having subverted and destroyed the Republic, and being afraid of losing his power, would of course expect that others would seek to subvert and destroy him – not the least of those someones being Darth Vader, whom you’ll notice is never in charge of the Death Star project.
I dunno. Because you’re not a total idiot?
Fabricating, yes. Assembling the prototype? Still going to take forever.
About 20 years to build the first Death Star. Let’s say that the second Death Star was begun the week after the Battle of Yavin. That means its been under construction for four years at the time of Return of the Jedi. It clearly isn’t anywhere near being finished, so let’s say it would have taken another two years to complete the other 45% of the damn thing. From 20 years for the test run to 6 years for the follow up doesn’t seem at all unbelievable, unless you’ve already decided that it’s unbelievable, in which case there’s no reason talking to you.
Admiral Ackbar would disagree. Had things gone as planned at Endor, the immediate need for a second Death Star would have been obviated. I’m sure they would have finished it eventually, but it would have basically done its job.
Of course, the only reason that there even is a second Death Star in Return of the Jedi is because the original trilogy were all written to be one big film, with only one Death Star.
Because while there are about 200,000 legitimate complaints one could lodge against the Star Wars movies, the ones in this thread are asininely stupid, and betray a staggering ignorance of filmmaking.
Nonsense. THX1138, American Graffiti and Star Wars were all superb films. Now, between 1977 and 1997, he didn’t direct a damn thing, and he’s so rusty and out of it that its painful in these new films. But the direction in each prequel was better than that in the preceding prequel.
I have never argued that he is as good, much less better, than any of those directors. Though Frank Capra’s films are all sentimental crap.
Oh, no, I get it understand the whole foreshadowing business and all that. I find it to be hamfisted and annoying as fuck as well. You know, if you spent more time in the real world and less time in your parents basement you could understand why people disagree with you. We had one other poster who automatically assumed that because a person didn’t like a flim meant that they didn’t understand it, you would do well to learn from his mistakes.
I don’t recall them being nearly so obvious.
Not if you think it represents a lack of creativity.
Well, you’re wrong. Its good filmmaking. In fact, in movies with lame performances, generally poor writing and often really overloaded shot composition, the echoes of the original trilogy are perhaps the only actual, honest-to-goodness good filmmaking
Oh, wow. That’s clever. I like Star Wars a lot, so I must be some loser who lives in his parents basement.
It’s not this movie you fail to understand. It’s filmmaking altogether.
Then you weren’t paying attention. Just two obvious examples, compare the last 20 seconds of TPM and ANH. Compare the last shots of AOTC and ESB.
Care to elaborate?
I didn’t ask you for the history of science fiction, I asked you for it’s appearance on the film screen. Big difference there. If I wanted to discuss E. E. “Doc” Smith or someone else’s use of a planet killing weapon, I’d have opened a thread on that subject.
Given that there can only be a master and apprentice as far as the Sith goes, you’ve got a pretty good idea of who to keep an eye on.
Close, but no. Given the number of mistakes the Emperor does make, you know, like not whacking Luke the first chance he got, since he had to know that it was tradition for someone to get whacked, and if you’re smart, you’ll do a preemptive strike, thus ensuring it ain’t you who gets snuffed. Of course, a truly smart person knows that eventually a corrupt regime will eventually collapse under it’s own weight and would strive for an enlightened society and not one based upon fear and terror.
F
Yeah, but when your computer security is so lax that any old R2 unit can jack into the nearest terminal and download all the information it wants in a couple of seconds, it’s kind of hard for me to believe that you could keep the whole operation a secret for 20 years, muchless the plans hidden from a growing rebellion for most of that time.
And when you can find a clip of him in the film saying exactly that, send it to me.
I’m sorry, I don’t buy that, either. Lucas has told so many damned contradictory stories about what Star Wars originally was, from a single film, to a pair of trilogies, to as many as four trilogies, that his word on the matter simply can’t be trusted.
Not really. You’ll just ignore anything I say, or take the opportunity to accuse me of being a basement-dwelling loser. So, really, you can go fuck yourself.
Oh, I see, because I happen to dislike a film you enjoy, I’m incapable of understanding moviemaking. Riiiiiiight.
Que? You’re telling me that films like those done by Akira Kurosawa are only good because Lucas lifted a few scenes from them for one of his movies? Even Lucas would disagree with that.
It’s not that you merely like Star Wars a lot (hell, I still have some of my Star Wars from when I was a kid), it’s that you think I’ve some how desecrated some great work of art by pointing out things I didn’t like in the latest one. Mind you, many of my beefs with the film have been pointed out and mentioned, not only in this thread, but in reviews by professional movie critics, and in most cases by people who liked the movie anyway. I didn’t, last time I checked, I was allowed to have my own opinion.
Given that I’m able to grasp Citizen Kane, Casablanca, the original Star Wars trilogy, Koyaanisqatsi it’s sequels (one of which was produced by Lucas, BTW), I’d say you were wrong again.
That’s 20 seconds, not huge sections of a film, as the third one was, and did it ever occur to you that by the time the third one rolled around, I was hoping for something a little different and better than what we’d seen before.
For some reason I didn’t finish that sentence. That graph should read:
Well, you’re wrong. Its good filmmaking. In fact, in movies with lame performances, generally poor writing and often really overloaded shot composition, the echoes of the original trilogy are perhaps the only actual, honest-to-goodness good filmmaking in the prequels.
IOW, you can’t come up with a good explaination and are just going to pick up your toys and go home.
And this helps your argument that RotS was a great movie, how?
This is plain wrong – ROTS had many, many parallelisms with ROTJ. Much more so than anything in the first two prequels.
I don’t share Tuckerfan’s view that this represents a serious flaw in the film, however – it was very pleasing, at least on the first viewing. There was an awful lot of it, though – enough that in my first post after seeing it, I wondered if the movie would stand up to a lot of repeat viewings, since a lot of the fun came from those little deja vu moments. That remains to be seen, for me at least, but even if those aren’t as much fun the third or fourth time around, that’s probably okay.
I’ve read all the scripts, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The script underwent many revisions. If you think there are no parallels between the early drafts and the finished films, you haven’t read them. The draft you quoted from was rewritten because it had too much action for one film – but if you don’t recognize elements of all three films in it, you aren’t looking. Yes, characters are switched around. Yes, the names are changed. But, shit, you’ve got proto-wookies (called jawas in the script, but furry, eight-foot-tall forest dwellers,) one of whom is partnered with Han, rebel against the mechanized army on the surface of the planet. In that script, they commandeer tanks and, later, spacecraft, and take part in the assault against the “Space Fortress” that threatens their planet. That planet is called Yavin, and the whole wookie subplot was cut from the climax of the first film, hinted at only by the forest canopy scene on Yavin base. The relationship between Han and Chewbacca was there, although Chewie was originally called “Bama.”) While the proto-wookies mount an assault on the space station, Justin Valor and an officer (Prince Valorum? I get confused,) stage a rescue mission to recover the Princess that Vader is holding. They are cornered, but escape by jumping into a garbage masher, and manage to flee the station just before it is destroyed. There are plenty of parallels.
No, they didn’t begin filming with that script. The script was revised half-a-dozen times before the production phase of the project started, and many things were changed.
Larry Mudd, yeah I get that the roots of the original movies can be found in the draft, I just found it interesting that that particular excerpt had mention of centuries old royalty. (BTW, drop me an email if you’ve got a good online source for the original drafts, I’ve only been able to find that one excerpt I quoted from a reliable source. The rest are obviously wannabe fanboys crayola based efforts.) Too bad they couldn’t have cribbed some of that for the Holiday Special.
In other words, I’m tired of being accused of being a basement dwelling geek by a turd who doesn’t understand the first thing about cinema.
I was arguing that RotS was a great movie? It’s certainly a great Star Wars movie. But its not a great film.
However, its problems have nothing to do with the absolute nonsense you raised. “Wah, Lucas’s movie didn’t match my stupid notion for how the Empire came about, wah wah wah.” Christ, you’re as pathetic as the dipshits sitting around after Episode I going “Wah, the Republic isn’t perfect in the prequels, and I thought it should be, but instead it’s inefficient, corrupt and unsympathetic.”
Well, when you cut out the stuff that was towards the end and was there not as homage or reflection, but for the purpose of bridging the gap between 3 and 4, I’m not sure that’s accurate. The main, clear, intentional reflection from the OT is, of course, the battle between the apprentice to be and the apprentice to be dead before Darth Sideous. Unlike most of the reflections towards the original trilogy in the other two films, this one was a truly pivotal moment in the story, and so it clearly stands out a great deal.
But, since it greatly develops the nature of the Sith, and particularly Darth Sideous, that was kind of the point. It really underlines how despicable Sideous is, how even after all he says and does in ROTS, he still can’t wait to dispose of his apprentice in ROTJ for one more controllable. All who gain power, after all.
Well, like most Star Wars movies, its better on second viewing.
Am I the only one who sees this as a bunch of geeks trash-talking to see who’s the geekiest?
Since it seems to be such a point of contention, let’s compare the opening battle of Sith with the Death Star II battle from Jedi, shall we?
Sith: Coruscant is under siege. Republic and Separatist starships of approximately equal classes and numbers are engaged in close quarters combat all around the planet. There are a few fighters engaged in dogfights, but most of the action is centered on the capital ships. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and a squadron of clone-piloted fighters are on a mission to infiltrate the enemy command ship and rescue Palpatine, so most of the fighter action, such as it is, is centered on them.
Jedi: The Rebel fleet is attempting to lay siege to Death Star II, but realize almost too late that its shield is still up, because the ground troops on Endor were unsuccessful in destroying the generator at the expected time. The entire fleet breaks away from the Death Star hard to avoid colliding with the shield, and is left in disarray. Both sides launch all their fighter squadrons, and massive dogfighting breaks out. At the same time, the Rebels detect a fleet of Star Destroyers hanging back, pinning them to the Death Star but not actually engaging them. In another surprise move from the Imperials, the Death Star’s superlaser begins firing, cutting down Rebel ships with ease. At this, the Rebels move to engage the Imperial Navy, hoping to evade the Death Star’s attacks, but the Star Destroyers clearly outclass them also.
I don’t see how these are particularly similar battles.
Tracy Lord, I agree with the general thrust of your post, but you picked the wrong plot holes to exemplify.
He applied for the job, he could fight, they didn’t know him. Or he killed a guard, took his uniform and snuck in. This is hardly a plot hole.
Of course they did. They traded regularly with all the farmers in the area.
He’s been flying something on Tatooine, and maybe the controls were similar to those of the X-Wing.
Erm… Luke grew up flying the T-16 whose controls were enough like the T-65 (X-Wing) that he was able to fly it. The T-47 was the snow speeder.
~escapes~
I was thinking about every scene between Anakin and Padme when I included Capra.
Uh, let’s see here, my beef with the film is that the acting and dialog were atrocious, and your response to that is that anyone who doesn’t think the film was great is an ignorant turd. Now which one of those positions sounds like it’s being held by someone with an understanding of cinema and which one sounds like it’s held by a fapping fanboy?
Backpedal much?
Except, of course, I liked the first two films of the prequel trilogy, even if Lucas didn’t handle them the way I had thought he would.