I had an abortion and all I got was this lousy t-shirt

The BBQ Pit
161

JSGODDESS –

I don’t think that’s the same at all. First, having a baby is not something you can hide. Have a healthy pregnancy and it’s likely anyone looking at you is going to know you’re pregnant. So there’d be little point to “resenting” it, would there? Second, having a baby is generally understood to be a joyful occasion. Having an abortion is at worst an emotionally wrenching heartache and at best a mere medical procedure. There’s not element of “congratulations on your abortion!” any more than there’s an alement of “congratulations on your appendectomy!” Third, whatever level of sharing is done is not “allowed” by anyone but decided by the woman. And some women do not shout “yippee! I’m pregnant!” even if over-the-moon with delight, because they consider it a personal matter. Though if you’re asking if I also think retch-inducingly-cute “Baby On Board!” T-shirts are also tacky, the answer is “yes.”

Good lord, yes.

All that can be true and the shirt still a tacky overshare.

Courageous to wear a shirt that says “MY BABY WAS STILL BORN”? :eek: The fact that it’s tragic doesn’t mean it’s not tacky too.

By wearing a T-shirt announcing her baby died?

Every single thing you mentioned is IMO too private to be announced on a T-shirt, and therefore a T-shirt announcing it is tacky. What makes abortion different? Nothing.

162

Of course it can be hidden. I think the Victorians hid their women away when they were pregnant because they thought it indecent to be on display. Wasn’t Lucille Ball the first woman shown as actually pregnant on TV? We could have that same attitude. We do sometimes hear about that same attitude. Teenagers still might disappear for a while “visiting relatives.” I had an acquaintance in high school whose parents took her out of school and moved away to hide her pregnancy. I think most of us would look upon that behavior as being extreme and parochial, not simply private.

No one is going to be shunned for having an appendectomy. And people will certainly send get well wishes and flowers and otherwise celebrate the person’s recovery.

If a male doper came here and announced the pregnancy of his wife, would your first thought be, “Wow, I wonder if she realizes he’s violating her privacy?” We no longer assume that privacy is warranted when it comes to most pregnancies.

In a situation relevent to the still birth, like a rally for support for research?

I think as a culture we do pile a lot of shame on women who become pregnant unexpectedly, and then we pile more shame on them if they choose abortion.

Someone will come right out and say, “I had to have an emergency appendectomy!” when a coworker says, “Bob, you missed that meeting on Tuesday.” There would a lot of concern expressed for Bob and his continued well-being.

Imagine the shock and horror: “Jill, you missed that meeting on Tuesday.” “I had to have an abortion!” Even most pro-choice people would recoil, I think.

163

I knew very little of the situation when I answered your question above. I certainly did not have all the rich, tawdry variety of details about other situtations that you have now shared. Here—let’s see what you actually wrote and the question you actually asked:

So you asked, do you think that the women he raped would have wished his mother chose abortion. Why would they specifically wish that his mom had aborted him? Don’t you think it’s possible that they would have—could have—wished that he not be raised in such a shitty environment, so he wouldn’t have grown up so massively screwed up? Like, if he were adopted into a nice, healthy family? Maybe right now he’d be going to college, studying to be a doctor or something. Why do you assume that we’d all think it would be so obvious that he should have been aborted, when it appears that adoption would have solved his behavioral problems just as nicely. Unless you think people are born rapists, and there’s nothing to be done once they are born, or something. But I don’t think that is what you were getting at, was it?

The way you phrased your scenario previously, you seemed to assume that it would be so obvious to all of us that abortion was the #1 only solution for this tragically screwed-up kid. But it isn’t that obvious, when adoption exists in the world. What he needed was to not live in that environment anymore. To not have been born into that environment. And that could have happened through adoption.

If you will notice I have taken pains to not get embroiled in this abortion debate and I have no intention of doing so now. You asked a specific question before, and I answered. It was really that simple. I didn’t answer a question that you hadn’t asked yet, and I didn’t read your mind and assume that you had some further tragic tales to tell. I simply answered the actual question that you asked.

When have I stated here what was or was not “acceptable” to me, in regards to abortion? Oh wait—that’d be never. Not on this thread, and it would be difficult to find me expressing a strong or vehement opinion about the subject on this board at any time. That’s because I rarely get into it, and also because it’s kind of none of my business what your business was back then. So you can take your melodrama and direct it somewhere else, thanks.

And you can read the statement I made above. And next time, find a quote where I’ve actually “judged” you before you get all self-righteous.

164

I forgot to say a couple of things in defense of the t-shirt specifically.

One, I think it is a very tangible means of identification and support. Women who have had abortions or women who may choose to have one can look at a woman wearing such a t-shirt and say, “Hey, she survived, she looks normal, she is like me.”

Two, people who haven’t had abortions and think they would never, can look at a woman wearing such a t-shirt and say, “Hey, she survived, she looks normal, she is like me.”

Three, people who think women having abortions are deviant Nazi baby-killers can look at a woman wearing such a t-shirt and say, “Hey, she survived, she looks normal, she is like me.”
Unless of course the woman wearing the t-shirt is 10 feet tall, green, and has antlers, in which case my entire argument falls apart. :smiley:

165

Right, because that’s exactly what what they’ll be thinking when they see that shirt. :rolleyes:

166

I found the statement “I think that his mother could have just have easily chosen adoption.” to be extremely judgemental. Since you state that this was not your intent, I apologize for taking it that way.

No one can (or should feel entitled to) know all “the rich, tawdry variety of details” about individual situations such as these. The bottom line is that only one person’s can truly understand what goes into making the decision between abortion, adoption, or keeping and raising the child of an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

This is obviously a hot-button issue for me and is one of the reasons I stay out of GD. No one should tell a woman that terminating her pregnancy is the wrong thing to do. In some cases, it is a much better option than either of the other two. Yet right-to-life groups think their way is the only right way.

167

For that matter, jsgoddess why not a t-shirt saying, “I was raped” or “I was molested as a child”?

You honestly don’t think it wouldn’t be tacky to wear a shirt saying, “I had a miscarriage?” Jesus.

Maybe it’s because it seems to be trivializing these things. We’re reducing everything to cutsey t-shirt slogans, rather than actually sitting down and discussing them.

168

Why? In the context in which the question was asked, I think it was entirely obvious and not unreasonable answer. You gave little information about the family situation in which this young man was raised, other than it was horrible, and that his mother carried him to term. (Obviously, since he was born! ;))

With the situation being so horrible, it seems to me that (given that I had no information about him other than what you gave) it would have been quite reasonable for his mom to give him up for adoption. Perhaps right after he was born, or at 6 months, or one year, or two years—hopefully before he started getting abused and too horribly messed up. I think the odds are likely that if she had, rather than keeping him around in that horrible situation, he’d probably not be in jail right now and those poor women would not have been raped. So why should I have assumed that abortion would have been the only solution for him, and the only way to prevent him ending up as a rapist? Why is my mention of adoption as an alternate solution to his wretched upbringing an “extremely judgmental” thing to say? I was only stating the obvious.

Apology accepted.

169

The more I think of it, I have more comments to make:

Then why are you asking our opinions in the first place? We’re not entitled to an opinion on someone else’s life or choices, it seems.

Uh, so let me get this straight. The mother of the 20-year-old rapist guy made a choice to carry him to term. Do you truly understand her reasons for doing so? Are you trying to say to us that she made a wrong choice by carrying her child to term? If so, where do you get off judging her? And where do you get off telling me that my comments about adoption are “extremely judgmental”? I formed one opinion (that she should have given the baby that she chose to carry to term up for adoption) while you obviously were leaning towards another opinion (that she should not have chosen to carry the baby to term at all).

It seems to me that you are as equally “judgmental” as I was, if I was, indeed, judgmental. From my perspective, I was only working from the choice she’d already, clearly made (to carry the child to term). I figured that since the child was already born (because she chose to carry the child to term), that the best thing to do would be to get that child into a home where he wouldn’t be so massively messed up. He’s an individual, after all, and he was entitled to grow up in a non-abusive home, no matter what his mother’s feelings were on the matter. And adoption would have done that for him. And it wouldn’t have changed the choice that his mother made to carry him to term—a choice that I believe she was entitled to make, and that I must believe that you believe that she was entitled to make. Or do you?

170

Jodi, much as I like and respect you (and that’s a great deal!), I’m going to have to slightly disagree with you here. Off the top of my head, I can think of several circumstances under which having a baby wouldn’t be a joyful occaision. There are circumstances under which it would be downright horrific. For example, a woman finding out she was pregnant after she was raped or after she broke up with her boyfriend, or after being molested by a male relative might not be thrilled by the news. For that matter, I’m old-fashioned enough that I’d be embarrassed rather than over-joyed to learn I was pregnant if I wasn’t married, although I realize that might be quite Victorian of me! Even with a happily married couple, finding out one’s pregnant when one’s husband’s out of a job might not be the best news of the week or when one knows any child one has is at risk for a genetically transmitted disease. If I can be less personal and take a step into the land of cliches, I’m not sure how many people around here would be thrilled to learn that a known drug addict was pregnant.

I’ve got a streak of outlandishness in me, which accounts for how I once wound up on the evening news singing a protest song. That’s why I’d wear such a shirt. On the other hand, if I’d wound up on the evening news in the same state my parents live in, my mother might have disowned me! :eek: Needless to say, that’s one shirt I wouldn’t wear while visiting her, even though she shares my views on abortion. Mum is far more ladylike than I am. I understand the disapproving looks and the desire to keep one’s private life private. Because I spent so much of my youth wishing someone would speak for me, I’m much willing to set aside my privacy to speak for others; on the other hand, there are some things I won’t discuss in public. I’m open about the problems I’ve had with depression because I desperately hope that by doing so, others won’t go through what I’ve gone through. I also deeply respect and sympathize with those who’d never dream of mentioning it for fear of the stigma it’d bring. I’m not afraid of being stigmatized and, some people think less of me because of who I am, what I believe, and what I’ve done, that is their privilege, but I won’t change to suit them. I can’t and be true to myself. That’s why on this, my friend, I suppose we shall agree to disagree, and I agree not only not to wear this shirt if we ever get a chance to meet, but to leave the Hell’s Mensan shirt behind as well! :wink:

Respectfully,
CJ

171

When I was in my teens, I met someone I really liked. Later, I encountered him while he was wearing a t-shirt that said “Commie lover.”

This was about 1985. I had never considered until then that a “communist” could be someone nice, and funny, and decent. Nope, they were all buffoons or icy-eyed killers. The only American communists were spies who’d slit their own mothers’ throats!

Only, not so much.

I was very pro-life then, too. I had the whole folder of self-righteous rhetoric like “If she didn’t screw around, she wouldn’t have to worry about it,” or “Why should the baby pay for its mother’s sins?”

And then I met someone who had an abortion and she was a kind, decent person. No horns. No forked tongue.

All of us like to demonize our opponents. Some people will no matter what. But others can be reached. It’s worth a shot.

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No, I wouldn’t consider it tacky at a relevent function. Nor would I consider it tacky if women having miscarriages were being demonized, blamed for their situation, or had the potential for their miscarriages to be made criminal.

I also don’t consider the shirt a gay friend of mine wears that says “I kiss boys” to be tacky.

173

All are tacky, IMO.

And, jsgoddess, “My baby was stillborn.”? Tacky and pitiful as well as a desperate plea for attention.

174

I don’t consider that one, (the “I Kiss Boys” one) to be tacky. I think it sounds kinda cute.

Nor, do I think, these shirts would be out of place at a pro-choice rally or what have you.

However, if it’s about how women are demonized for having abortions, I hardly think this is going to help. If anything, it’s gonna do the opposite. It’ll only give fuel to the other side-“Look at how callous they are! See, they obviously are overjoyed about it!”

175

SEIGE, I didn’t say every pregnancy was the pregnant woman’s dream come true. Off the top of my head I can think over several times that it isn’t, as well. That’s one of the reasons IMO we need to preserve the right to choose. BUT I do not consider it wise to tacitly accede to the idea that important issues must be “personalized” at the expense of any individual’s privacy, in order to make them relevant. Women should have the same rights of self-determination that men have over their bodies, but how, or when, or if they exercise that right is up to them. I HAD AN ABORTION – well, I had a root canal. So what? And on a T-shirt? It demeans the right to privacy, it trivializes the issue, and it’s imposing knowledge on people that many would prefer not to have. You’ve had an abortion, okay. You might have had a yeast infection too, but I don’t need to hear about it. As I have said, I refuse to tie together the concepts of privacy and shame, so I do not interpret distaste of such shirts as disapproval of the person’s choice, insufficient dedication to the cause, or consent to “demonize” women. I just think they’re tacky, and it’s the overshare that makes them tacky, not the subject matter. I’m not trying to infringe on anyone’s freedom of speech; I’m just registering that I wouldn’t wear one, and why.

176

Yes, after she made the choice to carry him to term, of course adoption was a better option than raising him in that environment. Yet she was entitled to make the decision to keep him, as well. There was many a day when I wished CPS would come and whisk him away.

It was the ‘just as easily’ part that I found to be judgemental.

My point (and apparently I didn’t make it very well) was that sometimes, adoption is not an option for various reasons. No one can know all those reasons except the person who makes the decision.

Yet adoption seems to be the only solution in many people’s eyes. It is not always (in fact, I’d venture to say it is rarely) just as easy to give a child up for adoption. Sometimes, its downright impossible.

177

Did you call CPS and report her? Did CPS know what the situation was in that household? Did they ever investigate? If not, why not?

Why? Was there someone preventing her from putting her child up for adoption? What reason did she have for not putting the child up for adoption?

See, I don’t know any reasons why not, because I don’t recall you telling me of any reasons. All I know is that she decided to carry him to term—which is not a insignificant process and would, I assume, not be considered “easy.” But for whatever reason she felt it was something she wanted to do.

Perhaps she would have felt like it wasn’t “easy” to give him up for adoption—I have no idea—but hell, she’d gone to the trouble of giving birth to him. After that, she owed him, as a human being, a fair shot at life. Even if, for whatever reason, it was difficult for her. And that may have even included giving him up for adoption, if she couldn’t straighten herself out enough to raise him in a non-abusive home herself.

Would it have been “easier” for her to straighten out her life, or to give him up for adoption? I have my hunches, but of course I don’t know her.

And you are implying that this woman made a wrong choice by not choosing abortion? Is that it? Yes or no? If that is your judgment, how is it any less judgmental than my opinion that she could have put him up for adoption? Neither of us are her. We weren’t the one with the decision to make about what to do with the pregnancy. Only she had the full knowledge of what her situation was. Not you. Not me. And she chose to carry him to term. Since I don’t believe that she thought that she was going to carry a future rapist to term, I see no reason to judge her for it, and from what you are preaching here about being judgmental, I see no reason why you should judge her for it either. It was her choice to make, and she made it.

I have serious problems with the choices that she made (according to your account of things) after he was born, however. And that is what I am discussing here.

And with the situation with this woman you knew, abortion seems to be the only solution you want to consider. But it seems like there were a lot of solutions and options that could have and would have been open to this woman, which would have allowed her child to not have suffered the horrible abuse that he did. But it seems like you are offended by the notion that I saw a solution other than abortion. Why?

178

Upon further review I want to respond to this:

True enough, I suppose. I wouldn’t know because I don’t generally go poking into other women’s business or asking them to explain their reasons for very intimate or personal choices. But I can understand that for some women might feel that carrying a baby to term would be very difficult or impossible, either physically or emotionally. I can have sympathy for that.

But as far as I can tell, this wasn’t the case with this woman, since she went through the whole childbirth process and chose to do so. And perhaps it would have been sad to give up the child, but it obviously was far more sad to see him grow up to be a rapist and end up in prison. (Which, of course, is a point where you do not disagree.)

179

Jodi, you’d have been a better daughter to my mother than I was. Even I admit I’ve no desire to run out and buy this t-shirt; it’s just not the most offensive thing I’ve seen by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, you want to see tacky, offensive, and gross, just take a look at what the t-shirt sellers are hawking in some of the beach resorts! Look, I’m notoriously outspoken, blunt, and tactless. I’ve been known to put my foot so far into my mouth you could see my toes hanging out the other end and wiggling! :smack: I can see your point about wearing the shirt and keeping private matters private; on the other hand, my father didn’t do anything when the father of a woman I was taking dance lessons molested me. The reason he didn’t was he didn’t want to create a stir in the community. I like to think I come by my outspokenness honestly.

With respect and love,
CJ