I hate Conservatives.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Le_Jacquelope

Oh and Captain Amazing, your ‘center right’ is our ‘far left’. Which one of those countries doesn’t have universal health care? And that austerity program you say the PASOK is gonna get whupped for? That’s a CONSERVATIVE move. That is going to bring upon itself horrible political consequences…

Center, maybe The Democratic Party fits pretty well in the European centrist/center right orbit, and the Democratic Party, while it’s not a member, has links to the Centrist Democrat International (former Christian Democrat International) And, in fact, the US Republican National Committee is a member of the International Democratic Union. which contains a lot of the parties I referenced before.

And the austerity program wasn’t a “conservative” move. The Greek economy and government was collapsing, and it desperately needed a bailout to survive, and the austerity program was the only way the EU would bail them out. It was a necessary, if unpleasant thing that any government would have done.

[magellan01]

@Le_Jacquelope

To whom, an involuntarily celibate dickless loser like you? Oh, I’m hurt now. Please don’t call me a moron again. If you say it three times you might even convince yourself! :rolleyes:

You seem to have an infatuation with penises, or some imaginary lack thereof. You may want to talk to someone about that. You know, a therapist. Or a post-op transexual. Whichever you think might be most, uh, “helpful”.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Starving_Artist

To whatever extent that may be true, it means nothing. If they had grown up here they’d very likely prefer our system. People like and defend their own. There were people during the fall of the Soviet Union who preferred communism and were furious to see it fail.

Easily demonstrated as absolutely untrue. Many countries have had various systems overthrown by people who grew up there, including the U.S. Plenty of people who grew up here now despise the U.S. health care system. Plenty of people who grew up here now go outside the country for care. America’s health care system is more unpopular among Americans than any other nation’s health care system is unpopular with its people.

And what’s all this talk about “savages”? Just because there are those of us who believe that people are happier and freer when the shots in their lives aren’t being called by government, or who don’t want themselves or their families to have to wait nine months for cancer treatment, that makes us savages? You been taking Der Trihs lessons or something?

So you’d rather have giant corporations call the shots, eh?

Your version of freedom didn’t mean shit to Nataline Sarkisyan who died because doctors said a liver transplant would have saved her life but the mindless savages you call private corporations denied her coverage. She would NEVER have been turned down in a universal-health-care country, especially after doctors said it would have saved her life.

Calling the shots in someone’s life? America’s system is guilty of cutting off people’s lives. Whenever you deny someone a transplant over a pile of cash that has no intrinsic value (oh and do please look up the term ‘intrinsic value’ and ‘fiat currency’) and you let them die, you’re an uncivilized animal. That’s how animals live.

I don’t know who Der Trihs is, but I will tell you like it is. Conservatism is the way of the lower primates. It is about animals trying to keep an entire nation adhering to their animal ways. People who believe in this neanderthal mindset belong exactly where your ancestors put millions of non-whites that they used to call savages: into reservations and cages.

I really wish the United States would split in half. You right wingers can keep your trailer parks and NASCAR; we liberals can keep our liberal elite universities and research centers. You can keep your oil spills and “clean” coal sludge floods and acid rains while we’ll go geothermal and solar. You keep telling your Nataline Sarkisyans that “there’s no free ride!” and they’ll keep coming to us for liver transplants they can’t afford on your side of the fence.

BTW before you get all mad at me or something and respond with the usual “I gotta retaliate to this severe dressing-down” venom, answer me this:

Compare the law of the jungle to Conservatism and please tell me what differentiates the two?

@Captain_Amazing

And the austerity program wasn’t a “conservative” move.

Cutting Government is always a Conservative move. It’s at the core of their belief system. Austerity measures such as the absurd bullshit that hit Greece sure as hell isn’t Keynesian. Just because Greece’s socialist government tried it doesn’t make it not Conservative. Liberal vs Conservative is defined by deeds, not labels or words. Austerity is in no way a Liberal move.

BTW how are bond risks premiums doing in Greece now after all this austerity?

@magellan01

You seem to have an infatuation with penises, or some imaginary lack thereof.

In your case it ain’t imaginary. I’d say suck it but you probably don’t even know what one looks like. I’ll give you a moment to look it up though.

[Gyrate]

@magellan01

You seem to have an infatuation with penises, or some imaginary lack thereof. You may want to talk to someone about that. You know, a therapist. Or a post-op transexual. Whichever you think might be most, uh, “helpful”.

Exactly what I said. See? Common ground!

@Starving Artist

You guys have been trying to accomplish UHC for decades (ever wonder why, if it’s such a great idea, the American people have always been so resistent to it?)

If by “the American people” you mean “the extremely wealthy insurance companies and their heavily paid Congressional lackeys of both parties” then no, I’ve never wondered why there was such resistance to it.

[Icerigger]

It amuses me that conservatives don’t want “government run health care” but they have no problem with health care decisions made by insurance claims adjustors. The irony!

[Gyrate]

@Icerigger

It amuses me that conservatives don’t want “government run health care” but they have no problem with health care decisions made by insurance claims adjustors. The irony!

It’s because they believe that with the private sector they have a choice.

[magellan01]

@Le_Jacquelope

In your case it ain’t imaginary. I’d say suck it but you probably don’t even know what one looks like. I’ll give you a moment to look it up though.

Sheeze. Not even your insults make any sense. Look, you’re giving imbeciles a bad name here. Think, man, think. Let some thread of logic serve you. Any thread. Even if it’s a hair from the head of your fellow mumbo-jumboist, Charles Manson.

What a maroon.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Le_Jacquelope

Cutting Government is always a Conservative move. It’s at the core of their belief system. Austerity measures such as the absurd bullshit that hit Greece sure as hell isn’t Keynesian. Just because Greece’s socialist government tried it doesn’t make it not Conservative. Liberal vs Conservative is defined by deeds, not labels or words. Austerity is in no way a Liberal move.

BTW how are bond risks premiums doing in Greece now after all this austerity?

It wasn’t a political move. They didn’t have a choice. The Greek government didn’t start the austerity program out of ideology, but out of necessity. The only way they could get bailed out by the EU was to agree, and without the EU bailout, the Greek economy would have collapsed entirely.

And I don’t know what the current bond risk premiums in Greece are.

[sleestak]

@Le_Jacquelope

Cutting Government is always a Conservative move. It’s at the core of their belief system. Austerity measures such as the absurd bullshit that hit Greece sure as hell isn’t Keynesian. Just because Greece’s socialist government tried it doesn’t make it not Conservative. Liberal vs Conservative is defined by deeds, not labels or words. Austerity is in no way a Liberal move.

I have a question for you. A serious question. I expect that the answer you give will be absolute bullshit but I am going to ask anyway.

Lets say that there is a family. The family brings in X dollars per year. The family spends an amount that is greater than X dollars per year by using credit. Finally, after spending more money than they have for years, the lenders stop giving the family credit because the family can no longer pay the money back. Therefore the family starts spending less than X while paying back the lenders.

Who’s fault is it that the family can no longer spend more than X dollars per year?

Slee

[Algher]

@Icerigger

It amuses me that conservatives don’t want “government run health care” but they have no problem with health care decisions made by insurance claims adjustors. The irony!

That is because we can choose a different insurance company, or we can pay directly, or we can use an MSA, or we can leverage our flex spending account, or we can buy into a concierge medical service, etc.

Our issue with single payer is if we end up with ONLY one choice in medical care - the government. Now, if instead we institute the postal system where you can buy multiple levels of care, plus you can use FedEx or UPS - then it is not as bad. We want the choice of premium care available.

[RickJay]

@Algher

That is because we can choose a different insurance company, or we can pay directly, or we can use an MSA, or we can leverage our flex spending account, or we can buy into a concierge medical service, etc.

Our issue with single payer is if we end up with ONLY one choice in medical care - the government.

And yet I have many choices of health care provider, despite living in Canada.

Single payer health insurance isn’t the same thing as the government actually running the provision of health care.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@magellan01

Sheeze. Not even your insults make any sense.

Little in the world makes sense to you. If what I said above didn’t make sense to you then the problem here sure as hell is not me. The problem here is that pile of feces that leaks from your ears whenever you unplug them.

And I’m done slapping you around. Iggy because you’re a waste of time. And oxygen.

@Captain_Amazing

It wasn’t a political move. They didn’t have a choice.

Again, conservatism and conservative behavior is defined by deeds, not politics.

The Greek government didn’t start the austerity program out of ideology, but out of necessity. The only way they could get bailed out by the EU was to agree, and without the EU bailout, the Greek economy would have collapsed entirely.

And I don’t know what the current bond risk premiums in Greece are.

The bond risks are quite high now in Greece particularly because the austerity cuts have even further hampered Greece’s ability to pay down the debt. All those austerity wage cuts did a number on their income tax revenue, for one. Cutting pensions resulted in cutting consumer activity.

Pacific Investment Management (PIMCO) had it right when they said the austerity cuts were ineffective or even counter-productive.

What I’m getting at here is that while the austerity cuts were designed to help Greece get a bailout, this in fact may have been a move that doomed Greece anyway. Collapse may be unavoidable.

@sleestak

I have a question for you. A serious question. I expect that the answer you give will be absolute bullshit but I am going to ask anyway.

Lets say that there is a family. The family brings in X dollars per year. The family spends an amount that is greater than X dollars per year by using credit. Finally, after spending more money than they have for years, the lenders stop giving the family credit because the family can no longer pay the money back. Therefore the family starts spending less than X while paying back the lenders.

Who’s fault is it that the family can no longer spend more than X dollars per year?

Slee

Stupid bullshit analogy. Doesn’t apply to nations. Grow up.

[magellan01]

@Le_Jacquelope

Little in the world makes sense to you. If what I said above didn’t make sense to you then the problem here sure as hell is not me. The problem here is that pile of feces that leaks from your ears whenever you unplug them.

And I’m done slapping you around. Iggy because you’re a waste of time. And oxygen.

“Iggy”? Sob-sniffle-sob. Well, you’re certainly too tough for me, Spike. And smart, too. It takes real talent to get almost everyone on the SDMB to agree on something, and by-golly, you’ve done it!!!

[sleestak]

@Le_Jacquelope

Little in the world makes sense to you. If what I said above didn’t make sense to you then the problem here sure as hell is not me. The problem here is that pile of feces that leaks from your ears whenever you unplug them.

And I’m done slapping you around. Iggy because you’re a waste of time. And oxygen.
Again, conservatism and conservative behavior is defined by deeds, not politics.
The bond risks are quite high now in Greece particularly because the austerity cuts have even further hampered Greece’s ability to pay down the debt. All those austerity wage cuts did a number on their income tax revenue, for one. Cutting pensions resulted in cutting consumer activity.

Pacific Investment Management (PIMCO) had it right when they said the austerity cuts were ineffective or even counter-productive.

What I’m getting at here is that while the austerity cuts were designed to help Greece get a bailout, this in fact may have been a move that doomed Greece anyway. Collapse may be unavoidable.
Stupid bullshit analogy. Doesn’t apply to nations. Grow up.

Nope, it is a reasonable analogy.

It is funny, in a kind of sad sorta way, that you can’t even answer a simple question and instead insult anyone who pokes any kind of hole in your arguments.

Slee

[Le_Jacquelope]

@sleestak

Nope, it is a reasonable analogy.

It’s a bullshit analogy.

Who’s fault is it that the family can no longer spend more than X dollars per year? It’s both their fault and the lender’s fault. When you owe the bank a million dollars, guess who’s in trouble? Trick question… for a dim bulb like you.*

Perhaps we should just stop paying the Chinese. Who will they sell their cheap poisonous bullshit exports to then?

To paraphrase Bruce Campbell: Fault, no fault, we’re the ones with the power to put between 50 to 100 million Chinese out of work and cause their economy to make a much bigger KABOOM than ours will.

• Aw, poor babies. You guys started the insults and ran and got the moderators to back you up in the non-BBQ Pit forums. Now you can’t handle it in the free-fire zone. Poor you.

[Gyrate]

@Le_Jacquelope

• Aw, poor babies. You guys started the insults and ran and got the moderators to back you up in the non-BBQ Pit forums. Now you can’t handle it in the free-fire zone. Poor you.

Yes, we are all cowering in fear of your awesome argumentativitude. I don’t know how I even mustered up the courage to post this. Please excuse me whilst I go change my soiled undergarments.

[PM270x]

3rd US President (1801-1809), Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson concluded the Louisiana Purchase with Napoleon and engaged the US into it’s 1st international war, The Barbary Wars. The Barbary States were governed by the Islamic Ottoman Empire at that time. The Ottoman Empire assigned a sultan to each of these Islamic Barbary States.

5th US President (1817-1825), Democratic-Republican (formerly Anti-Federalist) James Monroe of Virginia, established the “Monroe Doctrine” claiming American superiority in the Western Hemisphere and fought European interventions in Latin America by the Spanish and Portuguese. Politically fought Russia over claims to the North American Pacific coastline. Ordered his appointee, Andrew Jackson the US General, to punish the Spanish in the Seminole Wars and to defeat the Seminole Indians of Florida as part of the Monroe Doctrine. He was a strong supporter of the French Revolution and helped to later negotiate the Louisiana Purchase with Napoleon. Gabriel’s Slave Rebellion attempted to capture President Monroe and force him to free all slaves, but were hampered by severe weather and were unsuccessful. The admittance of Missouri, under the Missouri Compromise of 1820, as a Slave State was a leading factor in establishing the Civil War and was later abolished under the Dred Scott Decision of 1857.

Formerly, Anti-Federalist Party and later known as the Democratic-Republican Party, had its name officially changed by Democratic President Andrew Jackson to the Democratic Party (which is why Democrats advertise themselves as America’s oldest Party from 1801-to current).

7th US President (1829-1837), Democrat Andrew Jackson of Tennessee didn’t help minorities when initiating the Trail of Tears that slaughtered the Cherokee Nation here in GA and moved others to Oklahoma. Andrew Jackson used the US military to forcibly shutdown the 2nd Bank of the US (1816-1841): Now called the US Federal Reserve Bank as the unofficial “3rd Bank of the US“). This lead to the collapse of the US economy and lead to the Trail of Tears because of the Georgia Gold Rush in the Appalachian Mountains (Blue Ridge communities like Dahlonega) which has the purest known gold in the world with the least amount of impurities leading to less processing.

11th US President (1845-1849), Democrat James Knox Polk of Tennessee policy “Manifest Destiny” provoked the Mexican-American War of 1846-1848 (1847, American Invasion of Mexico) that resulted in the annexations from Mexico of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming, and California; while Oregon was taken from Great Britain. James K. Polk instituted his “Slaver Power” policy by fighting against the Wilmot Proviso, which would have abolished slavery in newly annexed territories/States.

Congressional Democrat, Jacob Brinkerhoff of Ohio, abandoned his Democratic Party in favor of the (anti-slavery) Free Soil Party and authored the Wilmot Proviso. Jacob Brinkerhoff then helped to create the Ohio Republican Party in 1856. Congressional Democrat, David Wilmot of Pennsylvania, abandoned his Democratic Party in favor of the Free Soil Party and co-authored the Wilmot Proviso. David Wilmot helped to create the Pennsylvania Republican Party in 1856. He became the 1st Republican candidate for Governor of Pennsylvania, but lost that election.

14th US President (1853-1857), Democrat Franklin Pierce of New Hampshire, drafted the Ostend Manifesto, which would annex Cuba by force if necessary, as a “Slave State” to expand the Southern States. Pierce helped his appointee, Democrat Jefferson Davis the US Secretary of War, to establish the Confederate States of America. Many believed he was a member of the secret society Knights of the Golden Circle that wished to annex the islands of the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico as member Slave States of the Southern US.

1857, Dred Scott of Missouri decision declared in the US Supreme Court, overruled the Missouri Compromise of 1820 as unconstitutional due to denying farmers of their right to own property under the US Constitution. All 7 justices appointed by Democrats declared slaves and their children to be property under the law with no legal right to citizenship. The justices appointed by the Whig Party dissented, 2 in all in the Scott decision. The Whigs argued that indentured servants, slaves, and children of either are eligible citizens and not property of individuals. The Whig Party now rapidly declines as their prior efforts to compromise with Democrats to avoid war under the Missouri Compromise of 1820 is deemed unconstitutional; because the law was unequally applied towards slave ownership above and below the parallel (Mason Dixon Line).

15th US President (1857-1861), Democrat James Buchanan, Jr. of Pennsylvania privately supported the Ostend Manifesto and strongly supported the Corwin Amendment. The Corwin Amendment would have prevented the federal government’s legislature from making any determinations regarding slavery and move all authority to States’ legislatures. Corwin would allow the equal application of slave laws within each individual State. This amendment’s support was supposed to be a compromise by the Whig Party to avoid the Civil War and to avoid the Confederacy’s creation by removing the federal government from the slave debate. The Whig Party took the bate and became insignificant after making two major blunders with the Missouri and Corwin compromises contradicting their core values against slavery.

US House of Representatives, Whig Thomas Corwin of Ohio, introduced the Corwin Amendment to prevent any future Amendments to the US Constitution that would empower the US government to enforce laws over domestic institutions within any State, to include preventing the abolishment of the institution of slavery or indentured servitude allowable within each States’ laws. This Bill was defeated by Republicans in the US House of Representatives.

Democratic Representative (1845-1861) and prior Democratic Senator of Mississippi (1835-1845), Jefferson Finis Davis eventually helped his Democratic Party establish the Confederate States of America. The Democratic Party overwhelmingly voted for Davis as the President of the Confederacy (1861-1865).

Confederate States of America nominees:

Vice President
Alexander Stephens 1861–1865
Secretary of State
Robert Toombs 1861
Robert M.T. Hunter 1861–1862
Judah P. Benjamin 1862–1865
Secretary of the Treasury
Christopher Memminger 1861–1864
George Trenholm 1864–1865
John H. Reagan 1865
Secretary of War
Leroy Pope Walker 1861
Judah P. Benjamin 1861–1862
George W. Randolph 1862
James Seddon 1862–1865
John C. Breckinridge 1865
Secretary of the Navy
Stephen Mallory 1861–1865
Postmaster General
John H. Reagan 1861–1865
Attorney General
Judah P. Benjamin 1861
Thomas Bragg 1861–1862
Thomas H. Watts 1862–1863
George Davis 1864–1865

At the collapse of the Federalist Party/Whig Party due to the Missouri Compromise of 1820, Abraham Lincoln created the Republican Party of Illinois in 1856, and ran on an anti-slavery platform that won him 60% of the populist/electoral-college vote against his opposition: Democrat John Cabell Breckinridge of Kentucky (2nd in electoral-college votes), who later served as the Confederate States of America, Secretary of War.

13TH Amendment to the US Constitution (Dec. 6th, 1865): Prohibits Slavery and Involuntary Servitude, authored and signed into law by:

16th US President (1861-1865), Republican Abraham Lincoln of Illinois.
US Secretary of State, Republican William Henry Seward, Sr. of New York
US House of Representatives introduced the legislation via: a.) Republican James Mitchell Ashley of Ohio
b.) Republican James F. Wilson of Iowa
US Senate introduced legislation via:
a.) Republican Lyman Trumbull of Illinois
b.) Republican Charles Summer of Massachusetts
Fredrick Douglass delivers speeches in favor of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation.
From 1865-1867, Confederate Democrats in Pulaski, TN created the KKK via the Immortal Six, their president Brian A. Scates, Confederate Brigadier General George Gordon as president, and Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest as Grand Wizard. The Democratic Party, via their KKK grassroots organization, successfully assassinated over 2,000 Republican candidates during the US 1868 elections in opposition to the Republican Reconstruction, anti-slavery, Irish, Jewish, and Catholic immigration; this prevented any Republicans from taking office in the Deep South for nearly 50yrs. and closed-out major elections for nearly the whole century.

17th US President (1865-1869), Democrat (briefly, National Union Party due to Civil War’s unpopularity of Democratic Party) Andrew Johnson of Tennessee vetoed the Civil Rights Act of 1866.

18th US President (1869-1877), Republican Hiram Ulysses S. Grant of Ohio, (1st Republican to win 2-terms) signed into law:
15th Amendment to the US Constitution, allowing Freedmen the right to vote equally amongst all other races.
Civil Rights Act of 1875, equal access in public facilities and jury pooling
Force Act of 1870 & Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871: enabled the US Union Army to put down protest and arrest any known member of the KKK, White Knights, Red Shirts, and White League; who’s involved in harassment, assassinations, or intimidations of Republicans, pastors, Native Americans, Jews, Catholics, Irish, or those of African descent.
1868, Fredrick Douglass campaigns for Grant.
Fredrick Douglass nominated 1872 Vice Presidential Candidate of the National Equal Rights Party.
1877, Fredrick Douglass appointed US Marshal.

1888 Republican National Convention, Fredrick Douglass received roll call votes for Presidential nomination.

28th US President (1913-1921), Democrat Woodrow Wilson of Virginia didn’t help minorities when he initiated segregated schools and buses and aggressively helped Democrats achieve separate but equal establishments.

[Buck_Godot]

Sigh…

PM270x I notice that your analysis conveniently ends before the middle of the 20th century when the Republican and Democratic parties platforms did a dramatic switching of sides on Civil Rights. You could educate yourself by reading about the Southern Strategy, but since it doesn’t support your view you probably won’t. Suffice it to say that in terms of civil rights Republican party of today in no way resembles the party of Lincoln.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Buck_Godot

Sigh…

PM270x I notice that your analysis conveniently ends before the middle of the 20th century when the Republican and Democratic parties platforms did a dramatic switching of sides on Civil Rights. You could educate yourself by reading about the Southern Strategy, but since it doesn’t support your view you probably won’t. Suffice it to say that in terms of civil rights Republican party of today in no way resembles the party of Lincoln.

Indeed. This is about Liberals vs Conservatives.

I wonder how many Straight Dopers routinely get confused about the difference between liberals vs conservatives and Republicans vs Democrats.

I’ve seen some epic missteps about the definition of simple things like (S)(s)ocialism vs (C)(c)ommunism that bring to serious doubt the “intellectual bad-ass forum” reputation that made posting here so alluring.

[gonzomax]

@Gyrate

It’s because they believe that with the private sector they have a choice.

The government wants to help you. The health insurance companies want to cheat you. I don’t find it hard to figure out which is better.