See, this is where I think simple communication might solve a world of problems. Let’s say you like a guy, but you’re not ready to be physical. And let’s say he tries to kiss you, and you turn away. It’s very possible that he’s going to think you don’t like him that way. BUT, if you say “I like you, but I want to get to know you better before we do this”, then the problem is solved, IMO. If he tries to pressure you into being physical before you’re ready - he’s a jerk; dump him. Like Duke said, he’s not gonna explode if he doesn’t bag you on the 3rd date.
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Originally posted by CanvasShoes
But see? We don’t get why men (usual disclaimer applies) feel that if they don’t “get it” they are a beaten man, or that they somehow “lose”.
Why do you feel that way? And “you” meaning all men who feel that way.
If Beaten isn’t just yanking your chain, and really feels that way, he DOES NOT speak for the average man.
This is why I aded the disclaimer, and made sure I asked “men who feel that way” not good guys like you blowero
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Also, I think that if more men’s attitudes were different, that more women would be less likely to say no to casual sex.
Blowero: You are responsible for your own actions. If you do something against your own better judgment, you can’t blame that on the man.
You misunderstood my statement here. I didn’t say I DID have casual sex and then feel awful, I said more women probably WOULD have casual sex if more men acted differently about it. (please note my use of “more” and “many” I am not talking about all men, or guys who are also looking for relationships. My post was a comment on casual sex.
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1.) Women aren’t guaranteed that they’ll climax during intercourse. Most men are going to get to finish the act, unless they are ill or have some other impotence problem. A lot of men have no clue how to make that happen for a woman, and aren’t interested anyway, ESPECIALLY if it’s “just” casual sex.
Blowero: Hmmm…I love to have the woman climax. If I’m doing something wrong, all you gotta do is ask. I’m not Casanova, but I’ll sure give it the ol’ college try. Thing is, we’re not mind-readers. You can wonder “why doesn’t he do xy&z?”, but unless you tell him, how is he going to know? And actually, it’s not always a guaranteed orgasm for the guy, either. But there IS a lot more pressure on the man. I’ve actually heard of women telling the guy to “hurry up”. Talk about pressure…
But blowero! Again, that’s YOU. My post/questions were about men who are NOT like that (giggle).
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2.) Too many men give off “double standard vibes”. That is, that unspoken attitude of “ha ha I got some, but you’re a little slut”. Even if they don’t say it, and even if they are reasonably nice about it, the “good girls don’t” thing is still there.
Blowero: Well don’t date those kind of guys.
A.) I don’t, and
B.) Even guys that are just looking to get laid, and ask a girl out tend to give off those “entitled” vibes. (Psst, what part of I’m not talking about guys like you aren’t you getting here? 
)
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3.) If you “give in” too soon, many men don’t respect you, and won’t date you past that point. Or if you don’t give in at all, they dump you too, so you’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
Bloweo: I wonder if that’s really the case. If the guy really cares about you, there’s no way in hell he’s gonna dump you because you had sex with him. I’m sorry to say this, but it’s far more likely that he just wasn’t that into you in the first place. Believe me - if a guy is really into you, and you have sex with him, all he’s gonna think about is having MORE sex with you. Ditto for if you don’t have sex right away - if he really cares about you, he will wait. If he doesn’t want to wait at all then he’s a jerk anyway. Remember, you can NEVER substitute sex for love.
I don’t know, but I was one of the “don’ts” and I got dumped a LOT after the 3rd date when I wasn’t “putting out”.
blowero: Of course, it all depends on age, too. If you’re talking about an 18 year old boy, all bets are off.
True, my getting dumped for not putting out happened in my 20s, when I was dating 20ish guys.
But again, my post wasn’t about looking for mr right but about casual sex.
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4.) It just feels uncomfortable, tacky and icky.
blowero: Then don’t do it for crying out loud. Seriously, is a man who will dump you only because you didn’t fuck him on the 2nd date really the kind of man you want?
But how are you supposed to KNOW that until you get to that 3rd date and he dumps you, some of these player types are VERY good actors. They can seem just as sweet and sincere as the next guy, we’re not mind readers, it’s not like players have a sign on their forehead that says “just out for sex” so that we can simply not date them in the first place.
Granted, now that I’m in my 40s, I can spot them more easily. But I still dislike the sleazy come ons by men just looking to get laid. If you’re out dancing or whatnot, how does a woman avoid that sort of thing?
And the insulted, hurt act when you turn them down “but baby, I can have any woman I want, I’m hot for you…etc blah blah bs”, PUH lease!!!
Honest to goodness??? You would think that if you didn’t have sex fairly soon that you’d worry she wasn’t that into you?
You couldn’t tell by the way she laughed at your jokes? Or looked at you? The fact that she kept saying yes to going out with you and had fun and enjoyed being with you?
(not facetious questions, honestly perplexed and wondering).
Let’s be honest, if we’re into a guy, a lot of us turn into nervous, giggling, or dare I say it, simpering idiots. Myself included. Or the complete opposite, we’re so afraid to show how we feel that we get standoffish (this would be pre-you-asking-us-out behavior though). So if a woman who’s normally an intelligent, composed sort of person starts acting like a giggly teen when she’s out with you, chances are, she likes you. You really don’t need immediate sex to know that.
Anyway, I don’t know how many women are like me, I assume quite a few, but if I go a few dates before the guy even kisses me (especially if there are a few moments where he looks like he’s going to but doesn’t), I respect him more. My last bf was like that - he was a keeper. (Unfortunately I’m not, I guess :() But seriously, act like a gentleman, women will like you more for it.
quote: blowero
If Beaten isn’t just yanking your chain, and really feels that way, he DOES NOT speak for the average man.
The average man is a pig and a jerk. And yes I do mean it. The desire for a man to mate is very strong. A man will lie and do anything he has to because getting off on a woman is better than a shot of herion. Men have to do it. It is in our nature. We are slaves to our harmones. Yes men are jerks and a bastards but if you milk them they will seem almost like a human for a short time. I know this is what you don’t to hear, but if you know the truth maybe you can deal with your problem better.
The only thing worse than dating is being stuck at home unable to get a date.
I just can’t let this one pass.
I don’t believe you speak for the average man. I do believe you are average for your own crowd of pigs and jerks. It’s people like you who give regular guys a bad rep.
As for this 3rd date rule? I read about it about a year and a half ago in Cosmo or Glamor about the time I started dating after being widowed. I was appalled. Scared the crap out of me. It had been a lone time since I’d had a date. About 14 years, but could things have changed that much? Let me tell you, dating when your 40 is the same and also completely different then when you are 20. Total mind scramble.
Canvas Shoes
I’m not a guy, but I couldn’t tell from that: I have friends, both male and female, who I enjoy hanging out with, who are hillarious people that make me laugh. It is possible for two people to simply be friends, to enjoy going out together with no romantic element attached. If you feel there is a romantic potential to a relationship, it’s a good idea to make that very clear fairly early on–and there are a million different ways to do this from a kiss to a formal, written declaration–and not assume it’s obvious. Assuming things are obvious is the Tragic Mistakes.
And if we are talking about relationship rules, I’m a gonna plug mine:
This is partly why I just plain don’t date anymore, and don’t miss it. And, no, I’m not slamming BeatenMan. He may have a valid point, though it sure isn’t PC and I doubt it’s illustrative of “average men”, whoever the hell they are. Honestly? I’ve heard too many good guy friends express things not too far removed from what BeatenMan said. (Though quite a few of 'em weren’t exactly sober at time, and suffering from break-up blues to boot.)
I wasn’t into boinking total or even relative strangers, even in the giddiest days of my youth. That doesn’t translate to low sex drive or indifference. Like it or not, men AND women can relegate sex to a separate set of rules that might not be logically congruent even to themselves. Whatcha gonna do? Sex has been frustrating, mystifying and confounding folks for ages. If people want to hump anything that moves just for the thrill, fine. If they want to pick and choose carefully, fine too. Seems to me it’s a matter of finding like-minded souls.
Count me in on the picky side. That’s always been my bent. YMMV. Could be a product of age and experience too but I just plain lack patience for “hi, how-are-ya, pleasantries over with so let’s screw” tactics. I don’t go to buffets and dive face-first under the sneeze shields to gorge on the troughs of food. Why should I be less discriminating with other appetites? I don’t think that’s snobbishness or fridigity, just opting for what’s honest and sustaining over glut. A bag of Fritos and a bottle of iced tea can be ambrosial in the right company. I’m flat out not gonna settle for allowing even near-strangers into my body and life just because they expect it on cue. Tough. Their loss for being greedy and desperate. I’m sympathetic but not obligated to be their faceless “other”. Simpatico is real and I ain’t settling for less.
Veb
I think I could do casual sex, or at least sex based primarily on what you look like, as long as the informal rules for interaction and flirting and making passes and so on were not gender-polarized. Usually they are, though.
So I go relationship-shopping instead, and after I find someone with the same general attitudes and preferences as far as how to structure a relationship and what rules we wish to play within such a relationship, we agree to meet or at least exchange pictures or something.
That’s my filter.
Well, let’s see, some men here have that we need to communicate with the guy so he won’t freak and think we don’t “like” him when we aren’t bumping uglies by date three.
My take on that? Um yeah, SUUUuuuuRRRRe, the second you say something like “I’d like to know you a little better before getting physical” too many (NOTE! I am NOT saying ALL guys here) men hear that as “Not until after we’re married”.
Some guys here have expressed that they honestly think lack of “sexual activity” on the part of the woman expresses her lack of interest in him.
That leads me to believe that the men that think that are either possessed of SERIOUSLY one track minds or they are completely unobservant to other forms of a person showing interest in them.
What? You’ve never had a woman make homemade cookies? Leave notes on your car? etc etc? You don’t consider sweet gestures, or just plain “You’re a great guy” as proof she’s interested? You have to have some sort of sexual gesture or it’s no go???
I mean come on! You guys aren’t buying into the “it’s too subtle for a man to pick up on” trap, regarding signs of “liking” other than sexual ones, are ya now?
AMEN! I think you have expressed this better than i could have if I sat here all day and tried.
Yes, I have had women give me food (not cookies, but that counts), leave notes, tell me I’m a great guy, and so on and so forth. And I appreciate it very much, I do. But do you know what these women call me? “A good friend”. I’m pleased to be their friend, these are some excellent people. But these aren’t romantic gestures - or maybe they can be, but I’ve seen them used in a strictly platonic context. So tell me - if a woman isn’t indicating at least some sort of sexual contact at some unspecified future time, how the heck can I tell she doesn’t just like me as a friend?
Conversations on personal topics? Done that with women who considered me a friend. If they ask me for advice at three in the morning? Girls who consider me friends have done that too. So what I’ve learned is that in all likelihood, a woman talking to me is NOT interested in anything more than friendship, no matter what the topic of discussion or how she looks at me. I see nothing wrong with thinking that if a girl is actually into me sexually, and wants me to know it, the appropriate thing to do is at least mention it. I - and I think I can speak for many guys here (those who I’m not speaking for, I apologize) - I am sick of having to play guessing games.
How about you just ask?
I, too, have had women do those things that CanvasShoes and Mr. Excellent mention, and with all but one exception, those women were in the “just friends” column. Some were even unattached, mind. On the other hand, the women I’ve dated, not counting that one same exception, never did any of those things really. Even the woman I eventually married didn’t–as I found out later, she was just far too shy to do anything that might suggest she might be interested, even though she was.
As Mr. E puts it so well, I too am sick of guessing games (or would if I were actively in the dating game, as I’m standing aside right now with my thesis revision in high gear). I think my displeasure intensified when I tried dating again after my divorce. Having endured a couple of years of intermittent dishonesty from my ex, I wasn’t in the mood to try to read the minds of women I didn’t know.
And, Deadly Nightlight, after some years alone, I did ask one of my female friends just that question, only to find she had absolutely no feelings for me, and indeed almost wrecked our friendship by doing so. I’d be reluctant to try that again, to say the least. Hence this skirmish in the battle of the sexes seems to lie in stalemate, I suppose.
I’m afraid I’m one of those women who just can’t bring herself to tell a guy I like him. I’m very shy. I just can’t do it. I’ll hint, and I’ll flirt a bit, but even that can be painful to me.
The guy has to make the first move with me, or we’re gonna be here for quite a while!
So I’m not too sure what the solution is here. Someone somewhere must be doing something right, we haven’t run out of people yet!
You know, that actually made me laugh out loud…so much so that I didn’t want to use the “LOL” cliche! Somehow I picture us single Dopers running up to their attached colleagues and asking “How did you do that?” 
It seems like a lot of people expect romance to be completely different from all other human activity. I wouldn’t be completely upfront with a guy any more than I would tell a prospective employer “this is such a great opportunity you can have me for $20 an hour!” When you start a new job, join a volunteer group, or move into an apartment building, you don’t jump out and announce all your deepest secrets and feelings. You give a little, check out how things are done, give a little more, see how people respond… dating is no different.
Except for the part where men are pigs and if you have sex too soon they think you’re a slut! 
Because asking is a very good way to make a friendship more awkward if that’s all it’s going to be.
I think you’re absolutely correct. But at a certain point, you have to ask yourself, can you stand being a friend with this person when you’d rather be a lover? And after a point, you have to say “screw it, if it munges up the friendship so be it.” You just have to take a chance I guess.