Ethics of dating in mid-life

In My Humble Opinion
1

Met a woman last night; got her phone number. This was no small feat for me. I’m 45 and it should be something in my repertoire but it isn’t.

Background: Had a bad breakup about a year ago. I’m cool with it, having done the personal inventory, taken some lessons from the experience, and I’m as ready as I’ll ever be to date again with an open mind.

I’ve been meeting lots of women and have several candidates in mind. And that’s where the problem begins.

While I like the gal whose number I got, I want to keep my options open, not mislead her, etc. I’ve decided one of my cardinal sins is jumping in too fast…it takes time to get to know someone well enough to commit. The irony is, I think I’ve never been a player but I think I need to be more player-like in order to find the right one. I could be on the verge of a delayed attack of puberty.

So how do you show the right amount of interest without misleading, yet not scaring them off unduly? How do you date multiple people without coming off as a total player? Is caveat emptor/venditor the norm? Any advice/insight?

2

As long as you talk about the issue of exclusivity before you sleep with anyone, I don’t think anyone would think you were deceptive or a “player”. :slight_smile: I think nowadays most people understand that you’re not exclusive unless you’ve agreed to be (especially since nowadays it is common to use online dating sites, and therefore have a lot of candidates at once).

3

Hmm. More questions…

How long do I wait before I call her?

Is “lunch” the done thing on a first date to do these days (short, sweet, safe)?

Which dopers subscribe to “Guys always pay,” or “He/She who asks for the date pays,” or “We split everything till we’re a couple,” or…? Do the finances of the individuals matter (she’s a student)?

Is there really a “three dates” rule that either you sleep together or move on?

4

[QUOTE=lavenderviolet]
As long as you talk about the issue of exclusivity before you sleep with anyone, I don’t think anyone would think you were deceptive or a “player”. :slight_smile: I think nowadays most people understand that you’re not exclusive unless you’ve agreed to be (especially since nowadays it is common to use online dating sites, and therefore have a lot of candidates at once).
[/QUOTE]
Although I agree with lavenderviolet in principle, at middle age there tends to be a gender imbalance on selective dating sites. Sites that require some effort at profiling yourself, like eHarmony for one example, tend to screen out a lot of chaser men, leaving a high ratio of women to men using the service. The women tend toward serial dating while the men tend toward parallel. Unfortunate, but common.

lobotomyboy63, your dilemma is a genuine one, shared by many. Like most men, you don’t have dials to control your feelings, you have switches. You’re either in or you’re out. Using emotional restraint feels like you’re playing games, which isn’t comfortable.

IMHO, the key is patience, self awareness, and being up front with dating partners. But be careful here - telling some women that you’re in “go slow” mode, or are “not relationship material right now” can be like pouring gasoline onto a barbeque. If you’re not good at saying no, get some practice.

5

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
How long do I wait before I call her?
[/QUOTE]
Wait until you want to call her. If that’s 10 minutes, do it.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Is “lunch” the done thing on a first date to do these days (short, sweet, safe)?
[/QUOTE]
It depends on how you made contact and what the geography is. If it’s a local online contact lunch is too elaborate. Meet for a walk or coffee. If it’s someone you’ve met face-to-face and feel interested in, a meal makes more sense.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Which dopers subscribe to “Guys always pay,” or “He/She who asks for the date pays,” or “We split everything till we’re a couple,” or…? Do the finances of the individuals matter (she’s a student)?
[/QUOTE]
Think about it, what makes sense to you? If the finances of the individuals differ substantially that matters, but I suggest that you avoid expensive first dates entirely, so who pays can be an uncomplicated gesture either way. You don’t need to solve financial problems on your first date.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Is there really a “three dates” rule that either you sleep together or move on?
[/QUOTE]
That’s correct.

Seriously, if you’re using a rule book for that question you’re in big trouble. First ask yourself if YOU are ready, then pay attention to her, and if you detect mutual attraction STICK YOUR NECK OUT and ask about how she feels. Yes, a few women prefer a “man of action” but I don’t think those are the women you’ll be happy with.

6

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
How long do I wait before I call her?
[/quote]

Call her the next day if you feel like it as long as it’s not at 3am or something.

Lunch, coffee or drinks is good.

Lunch: Offer to pay. Let her split it with you if she insists.

Coffee: You’ll probably each just buy your own drink but offer to get hers.

No. I would expect something physical by then but keep seeing each other as long as you’re having fun.

7

Thanks for the replies and keep’em coming!

One issue in the back of my mind is that it’s quite possible to create your own monsters. E.g. I was raised by old-fashioned (Depression era) parents and it’s only “gentlemanly” to pay for all the dates. But, pretty soon, women expect that all the time…and there are probably some liberated women seeking to avoid the “I know you bought me dinner but I am NOT sleeping with you!” scenario.

And then on the third hand (yes, you have three hands) you’ve got women who think they’re 100% liberated yet expect men to pay for everything.

Such a crap shoot out there…is it possible that each woman is a fresh puzzle with no instruction manual, or should I be setting down my own guidelines for what I want? The ambiguity of dating is greating greater, not lesser, IME.

8

Everyone is different. The issue where I saw the most polarization was the giving out of cell numbers. Some women made it clear that they would never call a man at first unless it was to return a call. Others made it clear that they didn’t want me to have their phone number at first for safety reasons and they would call me. Most, thankfully, are more in the middle.

9

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
Hmm. More questions…

How long do I wait before I call her?

Is “lunch” the done thing on a first date to do these days (short, sweet, safe)?

Which dopers subscribe to “Guys always pay,” or “He/She who asks for the date pays,” or “We split everything till we’re a couple,” or…? Do the finances of the individuals matter (she’s a student)?

Is there really a “three dates” rule that either you sleep together or move on?
[/QUOTE]

If you like her, don’t wait too long, a day or two at the most. Make contact even if it’s just to set up a date a week away.

Lunch is just not convenient for many working adults. Difficult to get the timing right during the work week and breaks up the weekend day that you need to chores/errands. Meeting for a drink or coffee in the evening is better.

Guys shouldn’t always pay but you need to make the offer. If she’d like to pay half or pick up the tab, make a second offer but insist on grabbing the bill. I’m 40 and if the guy doesn’t at least offer, it’s a black mark.

Depends on why you’re dating: if it’s just to get some, move on and do her a favor.

10

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
is it possible that each woman is a fresh puzzle with no instruction manual, or should I be setting down my own guidelines for what I want?
[/QUOTE]

Bingo!

Every person is a fresh puzzle with no instruction manual. Do what *you * feel like doing, and if it doesn’t work for that person, then she’s the wrong person.

That said…

I agree with **tremorviolet ** about the infeasibility of (weekday) lunch dates for most people, and the paying thing. There’s no way in hell I want to do a workday lunch date. I don’t have time for that.

I don’t expect a guy to pay, I do expect him to at least reach for his wallet as though he means it. My preference when it comes to the actual *paying * part of the paying dance is that whoever asked pays (and believe me, I do my share of asking), or to split it. My experience is that “split it” is not the preferred choice, since it tends to be awkward. So most of the time, if I asked, I insist (within reason) upon paying, and if he asked, I offer to split, and then accept his offer to pay graciously.

As for sex, work from your own timetable. Like **hajaro ** said, keep seeing the person for as long as you’re enjoying her company. After all, that holds true whether you’re having sex with her or not.

And finally…

Exclusivity should NEVER be assumed. If you haven’t discussed and agreed to exclusivity, then assume that you’re each free to do whatever you like.

11

[QUOTE=tremorviolet]
If she’d like to pay half or pick up the tab, make a second offer but insist on grabbing the bill. I’m 40 and if the guy doesn’t at least offer, it’s a black mark.
[/QUOTE]

Left a word out: “DON’T insist on grabbing the bill”. Make the second offer but don’t be overbearing about it. If she wants to pay or split, accept gracefully after the second offer.

12

You seem rather nervous and a bit tense,try to chill out a bit more you’re not meeting up with the Queen shes a human being just like you who is interested in you just as you are in her.

For gods sake lay off of the commitment thing,your going out for a bit of fun(and no I dont mean sex)if you think by taking her out on a date you’re expressing some sort of potential comittment then you’re wrong and will most likely creep her out.

There are NO set rules for dating,everyone is different and just be yourself,try to have a good time and dont be so intense.
Do what you feel is right at the time ,all that" you only ring after such and such an interval "You should do this when THIS happens etc. "was a guideline for when we we kids and maybe the code of conduct in Victorian times.

With some women you will feel comfortable acting one way and with others a different way.
If rules you want then the only two I’d give you are make sure your personal hygiene is spot on and never ever bullshit them,its you you want her to like not some pseudo version of you.

I’m older then you but I’ve never felt insecure with any woman and I’ve got a face like a bag of spanners and a beergut that could solve the famine in East Africa.

Good luck to you,hope you let us know how you get on.

Should I be getting my suit pressed?
Any fit maids of honour?

13

You are over thinking. If you feel comfortable call. It is not a vow of love. It is a phone call.
Pay for dates in the beginning. It takes quite a while before you start to split costs.
Sex happens. You can not plan or predict when it is time. Relax.

14

Thanks for the continuing advice!

I’m not really nervous about her…I think she’s interested, and that gives me some confidence. Rather, as some say, the definition of “crazy” is doing things the same way you’ve always done them and expecting different results. Dating to me has always seemed like a drag. I’d like to find a good partner for a LTR, and of course first impressions mean a lot. And I have some bad habits and thought patterns I figure I should change, hence the questions.

15

Dude!!! Call her the next day just to let her know that you enjoyed her company, if she really got under your skin, or you slept with her.

Call her within 2 days if you found her interesting and/or enjoyed her company, and at least say you’d be interested in getting together another time. It doesn’t have to be a “date”, but find out if she’s going to be where you met (if it was a bar or a club) and tell her you’ll see her there. And, at least, SHOW UP!!!

Call her within a week if you’ve thought things over and you decided it’s not a good match. At least let her know - she be keeping her calendar open, hoping you’ll call.

You don’t have to make any promises, but at least let her know she didn’t waste 15 seconds of her time writing her number down. If I had given a guy my number and he didn’t call, it made me feel desperate and cheap.

16

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

How long do I wait before I call her?

[/quote]

Two days is industry standard (tomorrow, then a day)
You should wait 3 weeks. Tell her you were cleaning out your wallet and you just happened to run into her number. Then ask her where you met her and what she look like. And then ask if you fucked. That would be money.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

Is “lunch” the done thing on a first date to do these days (short, sweet, safe)?

[/quote]

Wooo. A “day date”. How about on a Sunday? That’s like what you do with relatives you don’t even like that much.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

Which dopers subscribe to “Guys always pay,” or “He/She who asks for the date pays,” or “We split everything till we’re a couple,” or…? Do the finances of the individuals matter (she’s a student)?

[/quote]

No, you pay “big spender”.

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

Is there really a “three dates” rule that either you sleep together or move on?
[/QUOTE]

Once you get the “nice guy” date out of the way, you generally want to hit it after that. After three dates, I would generally move on if I were you. She either wants to sleep with you or she doesn’t.

17

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

How do you date multiple people without coming off as a total player? Is caveat emptor/venditor the norm? Any advice/insight?
[/QUOTE]

Would you rather come off as a player or a tool?

18

[QUOTE=Olive, The Other Reindeer]
Dude!!! Call her the next day just to let her know that you enjoyed her company, if she really got under your skin, or you slept with her.

Call her within 2 days if you found her interesting and/or enjoyed her company, and at least say you’d be interested in getting together another time. It doesn’t have to be a “date”, but find out if she’s going to be where you met (if it was a bar or a club) and tell her you’ll see her there. And, at least, SHOW UP!!!

Call her within a week if you’ve thought things over and you decided it’s not a good match. At least let her know - she be keeping her calendar open, hoping you’ll call.

You don’t have to make any promises, but at least let her know she didn’t waste 15 seconds of her time writing her number down. If I had given a guy my number and he didn’t call, it made me feel desperate and cheap.
[/QUOTE]

I think I’ll call her tonight. That’s about 48 hours after we met. Interested, but not TOO interested. Or something.

More background. I go to events via meetup.com. It isn’t strictly a dating site. I go to volunteer meetups, a meetup where we play spades, etc. In fact if you join and your interest isn’t there, you can organize one. She’s in a group that is all singles, but we do things like dancing, bowling, potlucks etc. as a group.

Saturday’s meetup was at a bar. I’m not much on dancing, though they had a band etc. I shot pool with her and some others. She said she lives close by, so that would be an okay venue as far as convenience for her. This supposes she isn’t comfortable getting into a car with me. OTOH I have some “pre-approval” by virtue of the fact that she knows others in the group and they’d tell her I’m safe.

One feature of meetup is that you can contact other members without revealing personal email addresses…or you can choose to give that out. It’s a case-by-case thing. Well, she emailed me last night (10:45), saying she’d enjoyed meeting me and followed up on a few things we’d discussed. She didn’t let her personal email show, however, which seems a little silly considering I have her home phone. But ok, I’ll write her back.

Where’s the “sigh” smiley when you need one? Olive, you’ll have to explain to me why you’d feel cheap/desperate because he didn’t call.

19

[QUOTE=msmith537]
Two days is industry standard (tomorrow, then a day)
You should wait 3 weeks. Tell her you were cleaning out your wallet and you just happened to run into her number. Then ask her where you met her and what she look like. And then ask if you fucked. That would be money.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes, “Swingers.” In another thread about things that were hard to watch, I should have posted the scene where the guy calls and leaves all those messages, never happy with the one he just left. Finally she picks up and tells him NEVER to call again.

[QUOTE=msmith537]
Wooo. A “day date”. How about on a Sunday? That’s like what you do with relatives you don’t even like that much.
[/QUOTE]

Who’s the patron saint of nerds? I wonder.

Others have accused me of overthinking. Um, yeah, that’s me. But I realize there’s a lot of game-playing here. E.g. if you call right away, maybe that is interpreted to mean you’re desperate.

I also learned some time ago that actions speak louder than words. If you say you’re really interested but show up late and act like a dick, the words don’t matter. If you say you’re taking it slow but present her with a dozen long-stemmed red roses, it “says” something different.

And then you’ve got the business model. I have X hours of time at my disposal and what share of it does she merit or what share of hers do I merit?

[QUOTE=msmith537]
No, you pay “big spender”.
[/QUOTE]

First date, I’d assume that. I agree with sunacres, saying that expensive dates should be avoided. I’ve never been a “sweep her off her feet” kinda guy anyway.

[QUOTE=msmith537]
Once you get the “nice guy” date out of the way, you generally want to hit it after that. After three dates, I would generally move on if I were you. She either wants to sleep with you or she doesn’t.
[/QUOTE]

Sex only clouds the issues. Besides, like I said, there are other women I’d like to date. One I just saw yesterday at another meetup, in fact.

I think a term that describes me is “introversive.” I picked the word up in a psych class. The opposite is “extratensive.” As they were explained to us: if you give a person materials, like twine, buttons, popsicle sticks, glue, etc. and say, “Your task is to construct a car,” the extratensive will pick up the stuff and start manipulating it to see what might work. The introversive will put his hand on his chin and manipulate the materials in his mind…that’s me.

I theorize about why this woman or that would be good for me. It’s just theory though. I need to date them to find out. If you’re dating more than one person, it seems like the cream would rise to the top. E.g. if you’re dating Alice and Betty, you’d see contrasts between the two. And if they’re dating other people, ditto. When you both say, “Of all the people I’m dating, I think you’re the best for me,” you’ve got a winner.

As it is I guess we reference our past for comparisons.

Re: tool or player? I guess I’d pick player. I’m already a tool… :smiley: :smack: :frowning:

20

I’m probably going to be unpopular for saying this…although I see I’m not the only one…but, if I haven’t leapt on and ravished somebody by the third hanging-out-on-purpose-by-plan, then I never will. Probably. (I am a girl.) YMMV.