I hereby pit Terry Francona, Braindead Douchebag of the Year

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
[You are not the first by a long shot to point out how he is statistically inferior to the average Short Stop in fielding. You poll Yankee fans on who we would trade him for and overwhelmingly you will hear no one. You ask his teammates past and present about whom they would prefer at shortstop and most will say Jeter.
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Well, given the way he hits, why not keep him? He’s been a superior player for eleven years and SHOULD have won two MVP Awards. Of course Yankee fans overlook his defensive limitations, but there’s no point denying they exist. (Or did exist; he’s improved in recent years.)

82

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Well, given the way he hits, why not keep him? He’s been a superior player for eleven years and SHOULD have won two MVP Awards. Of course Yankee fans overlook his defensive limitations, but there’s no point denying they exist. (Or did exist; he’s improved in recent years.)
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Yep, even I will admit he did not deserve his GGs, but the stats never seem to show the way he goes back on balls and he has hardly hurt the Yanks with his glove.

Jim

83

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Yep, even I will admit he did not deserve his GGs, but the stats never seem to show the way he goes back on balls and he has hardly hurt the Yanks with his glove.
[/QUOTE]

He used to hurt the Yankees quite a lot with his glove. It’s just that it’s the kind of hurting that isn’t obvious to the eye; when a guy dives for a ball and doesn’t get it, you don’t generally notice that he covered only X feet, when the average AL shortstop covers Y. If you really concentrate on Jeter when he’s playing against a REALLY good shortstop, like Orlando Cabrera or John McDonald, you start to see that he’s not as quick as they are, but it’s a difference that you really need to watch for to see.

Of course, it’s a bit of an understatement of his current defensive performance to say that he is an “Average” shortstop. An “Average” player is very valuable, and an average defensive shortstop is extremely valuable. Shortstops are the best defensive players on the field, on average, and only superior defensive players get to play the position in the major leagues. A genuinely subpar shortstop will usually be moved to another, less demanding position if he can hit, or won’t make the majors, or stay long, if he can’t. An average defensive shortstop in the AL is a hell of a defensive player who will make many very fine plays and who is an unusually talented and valuable defensive player almost by definition. A shortstop who can rise well beyond THAT is an enormously valuable glove man, which is why Ozzie Smith deserved his Hall of Fame plaque.

I like Jeter, and how many fans outside NY do you think believe he’s been robbed of the MVP twice? But I base all my admiration of him on his tangible contributions, not things he deserves no credit for like Gold Glove defense and being super-playoff-clutch.

It’ll be interesting to see how JEter’s career plays out, as he now passed his peak. His basestealing numbers are wayyyy down, which I find just a little worrisome. but his hitting is at about his career norm.

84

[QUOTE=RickJay]
He used to hurt the Yankees quite a lot with his glove. It’s just that it’s the kind of hurting that isn’t obvious to the eye; when a guy dives for a ball and doesn’t get it, you don’t generally notice that he covered only X feet, when the average AL shortstop covers Y. If you really concentrate on Jeter when he’s playing against a REALLY good shortstop, like Orlando Cabrera or John McDonald, you start to see that he’s not as quick as they are, but it’s a difference that you really need to watch for to see.

Of course, it’s a bit of an understatement of his current defensive performance to say that he is an “Average” shortstop. An “Average” player is very valuable, and an average defensive shortstop is extremely valuable. Shortstops are the best defensive players on the field, on average, and only superior defensive players get to play the position in the major leagues. A genuinely subpar shortstop will usually be moved to another, less demanding position if he can hit, or won’t make the majors, or stay long, if he can’t. An average defensive shortstop in the AL is a hell of a defensive player who will make many very fine plays and who is an unusually talented and valuable defensive player almost by definition. A shortstop who can rise well beyond THAT is an enormously valuable glove man, which is why Ozzie Smith deserved his Hall of Fame plaque.

I like Jeter, and how many fans outside NY do you think believe he’s been robbed of the MVP twice? But I base all my admiration of him on his tangible contributions, not things he deserves no credit for like Gold Glove defense and being super-playoff-clutch.

It’ll be interesting to see how JEter’s career plays out, as he now passed his peak. His basestealing numbers are wayyyy down, which I find just a little worrisome. but his hitting is at about his career norm.
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Actually my brother and I were talking about how Jeter was actually having an off year, which makes what A-Rod is doing this season even more important. Yet I check an he likely to have yet another 200 hit and 100 run season. He has already hit 35 doubles. I cannot figure out what the SB are about. The biggest concern there is that he has Stolen bases at a 75-80% clip in his career and this year he his only 13 of 21. This is the worst he has been by percentage.

I suspect his legs have not been right most of the years and being Jeter, he is just playing through it of course.

Jim

85

[QUOTE=RickJay]
He used to hurt the Yankees quite a lot with his glove. It’s just that it’s the kind of hurting that isn’t obvious to the eye; when a guy dives for a ball and doesn’t get it, you don’t generally notice that he covered only X feet, when the average AL shortstop covers Y. If you really concentrate on Jeter when he’s playing against a REALLY good shortstop, like Orlando Cabrera or John McDonald, you start to see that he’s not as quick as they are, but it’s a difference that you really need to watch for to see.

Of course, it’s a bit of an understatement of his current defensive performance to say that he is an “Average” shortstop. An “Average” player is very valuable, and an average defensive shortstop is extremely valuable. Shortstops are the best defensive players on the field, on average, and only superior defensive players get to play the position in the major leagues. A genuinely subpar shortstop will usually be moved to another, less demanding position if he can hit, or won’t make the majors, or stay long, if he can’t. An average defensive shortstop in the AL is a hell of a defensive player who will make many very fine plays and who is an unusually talented and valuable defensive player almost by definition. A shortstop who can rise well beyond THAT is an enormously valuable glove man, which is why Ozzie Smith deserved his Hall of Fame plaque.

I like Jeter, and how many fans outside NY do you think believe he’s been robbed of the MVP twice? But I base all my admiration of him on his tangible contributions, not things he deserves no credit for like Gold Glove defense and being super-playoff-clutch.

It’ll be interesting to see how JEter’s career plays out, as he now passed his peak. His basestealing numbers are wayyyy down, which I find just a little worrisome. but his hitting is at about his career norm.
[/QUOTE]

Jeter is a unique player. I remember when there was a debate on who was he best shortstop when the three–he, Rodriguez, and Garciaparra–came up, and I always thought he just slight below them both in fielding ability, equal in batting average, and below them both in power numbers. But he had one thing neither of them particularly had: a genuinely good rapport with his teammates. I think it’s this last thing (along with being virtually injury-free) that separates him from most other shortstops. He’s also developed into quite a good leader and fills his captain position well.

I think he’ll make the Hall, based on his position, his career batting average, and the fact that he’s the Yankees captain. Remember, it’s a vote and no justification is required. The one thing that is really strange about Jeter’s stats, though is that he’s very streaky. I’m talking about LONG streaks. He’ll hit .395 for 75 games, then turn around and hit .170 for the next 40. These streaks make his numbers appear to be somewhat consistent, but he’s a really inconsistent hitter and you never know when he’ll go on an absolute tear.

86

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Jeter is a unique player. I remember when there was a debate on who was he best shortstop when the three–he, Rodriguez, and Garciaparra–came up, and I always thought he just slight below them both in fielding ability, equal in batting average, and below them both in power numbers. But he had one thing neither of them particularly had: a genuinely good rapport with his teammates.
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Well, what he has that Garciaparra does not is health. There’s no doubt at all Garciaparra would be on his way to the Hall if he hadn’t got hurt so much. In that trifecta, the odd man out is Garciaparra, who has injured out of the Hall. And the only one who was actually a particularly good fielding shortstop was Rodriguez; Garciaparra wasn’t great with the glove, and I always thought he was playing out of position.

As for A-Rod, have you ever really heard anything bad about him and his teammates exccept this manufactured crisis with Jeter?

Streaky or not, he’s a Hall of Fame player. You’d have a lot of trouble finding many shortstops with his credentials, especially with the stick.

You’re right, though, in that he’s unique. He’s a career .318 hitter but strikes out a lot; I can’t offhand think of ANY player, ever, who has had a batting average that high striking out a hundred times a year with such a middling K-W ratio. I wouldn’t have thought it possible to sustain a .318 average whiffing a hundred times a year but he’s done it. He has a technically ugly swing’ watching him hit, it’s hard to believe he hits as well as he does. He’s also probably the worst defensive shortstop to ever play the position as long as he has. It’s a weird combination, but it works for him.

87

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Well, what he has that Garciaparra does not is health. There’s no doubt at all Garciaparra would be on his way to the Hall if he hadn’t got hurt so much. In that trifecta, the odd man out is Garciaparra, who has injured out of the Hall. And the only one who was actually a particularly good fielding shortstop was Rodriguez; Garciaparra wasn’t great with the glove, and I always thought he was playing out of position.

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I remember Garciaparra a bit differently. In his first few years (before his Achilles’ disaster), I thought he had a lot of range and made some great plays. I suppose never really looked particularly smooth, though.

It’s more the good I see in Jeter is why I wrote that, not necessarily the bad in Rodriguez.

Hmmm… you know what else is odd about Jeter’s stats is that he walks a fair amount too. Basically what that tells me is that he has exceptional control as to where the ball ends up when it leaves his bat; if he hits it, it’s likely a hit. In fact, if you do some quick math, you can see just how ridiculously good this number is:

Average BB: 67
Average K: 114

Total: 181

Average Hits: 208

BB + K + H: 389

Average Plate Appearances* (AB (656) + BB (67)): 723

723 - 389 = 334 times he puts the ball in play and makes an out. So, when he makes contact, 208 out of 540 times, it’s a hit. That shows an outstanding ability to place a hit ball.

  • Not exact; not counting things like reaching on errors, HBP, etc.
88

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
723 - 389 = 334 times he puts the ball in play and makes an out. So, when he makes contact, 208 out of 540 times, it’s a hit. That shows an outstanding ability to place a hit ball.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, when you calculate a player’s Batting Average on Balls in Play, which is pretty much what you’re trying to do here, you are meant to remove home runs from both the top and the bottom of the equation.

If my calculations are correct, Jeter’s career BABIP is about .346, and this year he’s at .360.

According to a couple of the articles i’ve read on the subject, league average BABIP usually hovers somewhere around .290 to .300, so Jeter’s career figures in this category are certainly well above average.

Most analysts believe that a consistently high career BABIP is, in fact, indicative of certain skills. Plenty of players have good individual BABIP years, but then regress to their mean. For example, in the middle of July, Derrek Lee of the Cubs was leading all players with a season BABIP of .406, which is 80 points above his career figures of .326. He’s unlikely to maintain that sort of performance over an extended period. Short-term BABIP can be heavily influenced by luck.

Luck also plays a role in long-term BABIP, although generally the longer a player plays, the less his success (or failure) in this category can be attributed to luck. Parks also play a big role in BABIP. If you play your whole career in a park with cavernous outfields and long fences, your BABIP will likely be higher than if you play in a more compact park where the outfielders are more likely to get to line drives and fly balls. Player speed is also an issue; if you are fast enough to beat out some grounders and swinging bunts, your BABIP is likely to be higher.

89

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Luck also plays a role in long-term BABIP, although generally the longer a player plays, the less his success (or failure) in this category can be attributed to luck. Parks also play a big role in BABIP. If you play your whole career in a park with cavernous outfields and long fences, your BABIP will likely be higher than if you play in a more compact park where the outfielders are more likely to get to line drives and fly balls. Player speed is also an issue; if you are fast enough to beat out some grounders and swinging bunts, your BABIP is likely to be higher.
[/QUOTE]

Jeter, for most of his career, has been very fast, which helps to explain that.

It may be a new phenomenon. In looking for players with similar batting averages and high strikeout rates I had a heck of a time finding any… but Miguel Cabrera, of the Marlins, does in fact have a very high batting average with a lot of strikeouts. It may simply me that today’s weight-trained players hit the ball harder than they used to.

90

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Actually, when you calculate a player’s Batting Average on Balls in Play, which is pretty much what you’re trying to do here, you are meant to remove home runs from both the top and the bottom of the equation.

If my calculations are correct, Jeter’s career BABIP is about .346, and this year he’s at .360.

According to a couple of the articles i’ve read on the subject, league average BABIP usually hovers somewhere around .290 to .300, so Jeter’s career figures in this category are certainly well above average.

Most analysts believe that a consistently high career BABIP is, in fact, indicative of certain skills. Plenty of players have good individual BABIP years, but then regress to their mean. For example, in the middle of July, Derrek Lee of the Cubs was leading all players with a season BABIP of .406, which is 80 points above his career figures of .326. He’s unlikely to maintain that sort of performance over an extended period. Short-term BABIP can be heavily influenced by luck.

Luck also plays a role in long-term BABIP, although generally the longer a player plays, the less his success (or failure) in this category can be attributed to luck. Parks also play a big role in BABIP. If you play your whole career in a park with cavernous outfields and long fences, your BABIP will likely be higher than if you play in a more compact park where the outfielders are more likely to get to line drives and fly balls. Player speed is also an issue; if you are fast enough to beat out some grounders and swinging bunts, your BABIP is likely to be higher.
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Indeed. Great post, man. That’s exactly what I was getting at.

91

[QUOTE=mhendo]
I think there might be something to this, although i think it’s probably got more to do with facing good pitchers, as suggested by What Exit?, than with the more nebulous category of “pressure.” Most teams that make the postseason do so with pretty good pitching staffs, and the breaks in the schedule mean that the top three pitchers in each rotation sometimes get a higher proportion of starts than in the regular season.
[/quote]

Hershiser may have actually addressed that point, but I can’t remember the specifics of his article. In that case, it appears Jeter hits about as well against the best pitchers in the post-season as he does against the whole league in the regular season, which is impressive.

92

[QUOTE=RickJay]
Garciaparra wasn’t great with the glove, and I always thought he was playing out of position.

[/QUOTE]

I always thought Garciaparra’s big weakness was his throwing. He always side-armed the ball (I assume he still does, but I haven’t seen him play much the last three years), and it tended to sail away. I remember him having a disproportionate number of throwing errors.