I love George Carlin for this...

Great Debates
21

Building on what JAR said, I think there’s a difference between “intellectually questioning a choice I made” and showing “scorn” for it. I’ve never said that people have to agree with my beliefs but I do expect them to be respectful about them, at least to my face, out of the recognition that they are genuinely held and important to me. And I’ve met very few people who can’t manage at least that.

That said, in the context of entertaining people, Mr. Carlin can “scorn” or make fun of whatever he likes. I don’t take my philosophical cues from stand-up comedians anyway.

22

[disclaimer]
I don’t particularly believe Carlin is a bigot. He’s a humorist, and a damn funny one. The fact that I disagree with the above statement just means I think he’s wrong, not that I think he’s a bigot.
[/disclaimer]

The statement is unsupportable because it is self-contradictory. He says he wouldn’t attack Jews, but Judaism is a religion as well as a heritage. Granted, there are some people who are Jewish by heritage but are not religious (such as myself). But it would be absurd to say, “All right, we only call the believers who go to the synagogue kikes, hebes and sheenies, so you see we’re not really bigots.” Bigotry is bigotry, whether or not the victims choose to belong to the group discriminated against.

There is, of course, great controversy over whether gays choose to be gay or are born that way. I believe they are born that way, because that’s what gays, without exception, tell me. But if tomorrow it were proven to me incontrovertibly that homosexuality is a choice, it would still not justify discrimination against this innocent and harmless orientation, and those who choose to practice such discrimination are not excused in my eyes by the fact that they believe their victims are gay by choice.

Bigotry frequently manifests itself as lying about the group against whom one is bigoted. If I were to say that Democrats are all Communists, or Republicans all Nazis, that would be bigotry on my part, notwithstanding my protests that people choose to belong to the Democratic or Republican party.

But joking is joking, and Carlin is good at it. Almost any statement that is genuinely funny is forgiveable, regardless of who it is targeting. As long as it’s clear that Carlin’s purpose is to entertain, not spread prejudice or disinformation, I’m equally ready to forgive him any jokes he makes at the expense of religion and any jokes he makes at the expense of unchosen groups like whites, Americans, or males (even though I am each of those things). So I agree that Carlin’s not necessarily a bigot, but not because he claims to target only self-conferred intellectual designations.

23

It was my pleasure to help you out on this issue. There is only one black culture the way there is only one ocean.

24

Scylla said:

Which doesn’t make him any less black.

That really depends on whether it is genetic or a choice. Evidence to date suggests it is at least mostly genetic and not a choice.

You think it would be easier for a person to live a lie and force himself to like women than it would be for an Amish person to simply leave the farm? Yes, a Muslim woman in a Muslim country would have one hell of a time of things, but here in the U.S. people switch religions all the time.

25

Ok, could be I am just dense here, but I am not sure what you mean by the above statement. I get the first part, that a gay person can reject their homosexuality, and I can almost, but not quite stretch my mind around the second part. Are you saying that for some religious people, their belief is so deeply ingrained into them that they cannot intellectually examine it? Or are you saying that it is so difficult to change due to the circumstances they live in, that an Amish born or a Muslim woman would find it near impossible to form an independent life?

Please elaborate, because as it reads, I am not sure whether I agree or disagree with you.

Jeeves

26

David B:

(BTW It’s about freakin’ time you showed up again. I’m way overdue for an ass-whoopin’)

On the physical level, that’s of course true. Culturally though, he would no longer be black. For example, Feeling as he did about the state of American black culture, and despising white culture, Richard Write (sp.) expatriated to France where there are little or no cultural differences between Whites and Blacks.

Similarly the editor of the local newspaper here in very white central PA, is black. He’s a golf buddy, and an L.A. native of an underprivileged family. Aside from the color of his skin, there are no cultural cues to suggest he’s anything but a Central PA native. As an NYC transplant to this area I’ve adopted Central PA culture (such as it is,) and am culturally no longer a New Yorker.

Yes, I understand. The sad thing though is when I picture things the other way around. Suppose everybody was gay, and Heterosecuals were the minority. Knowing myself, I’d probably reject my heterosexuality and behave as a homosexual in order to conform, though I’d probably be unhappy doing so. I wonder how many unhappy Homosexuals must be living as heterosexuals in order to conform, and, conclude that it must be a lot.

So, just as a black man remains genetically black, and a homosexual remains genetically homosexual, there is some collusion involved in rejecting or accepting these inborn traits and their cultural attachments.

In a word, Yes.

An Amish woman is lucky if she has a subpar 8th grade education. She has no marketable skills, no means of support other than the Amish community, and no relationships with people outside of the community. From what I’ve seen it would be unimaginably tough to do. From which I conclude that some cultural ties can be more binding than genetic ones.

27

Describe black culture.

28

I don’t really see how religion is a choice. Like many atheists have said here they could not make themselves believe in god. Ergo they don’t have a choice in the matter.

I would also agree with Scylla that living a lie is easier than changing from something like an Amish community. Its almost always easier to stay the same than to change.

29

Cool, in your reply to DavidB you answered my question Scylla . But to make sure I am getting this straight, what you are saying is that because of certain cultural factors including education levels and funding and relative amounts of freedom, it can be harder for some people to change their religion than for someone who is gay to live as a gay man.

 Ok, I agree with you there. I don't agree with you all the way on your statement regarding people who are black, because at least in the USA, you will be treated differently based on your skin color much more than whatever cultural traits you possess. Much like obvious trappings of religion will get you treated differently, i.e. the Amish with their distinctive manner of dress. Not by all people, but by a significant portion of people.

 Of course, I still feel that you are allowed to question and mock anything someone chooses, so while you might question someone's taste in music if they like rap or Abba, only a fool would question and ridicule someone because they have more melatonin in their skin.

Jeeves

30

Jeeves:

How of course someone else treats a person based on skin color is of that someone else’s problem, and doesn’t say much about the person being referred to.

We seem to be in agreement.

Jab1:

Jeez. You’re worse than PLD. Are you trying to trap me, or use sophistry to make me look bigoted?

Black culture would be the collective of social mores, tradittions and preferences commonly held by groups most identified by the fact that they have predominantly black skin. Many of these things evolve to cross racial lines, and much of what we think of as American culture has its roots in underprivileged black America. It’s been that way a long time.

The blues started off as exclusively black and later evolved into rock and roll. Jazz and rap also started as black cultural items. Soul food. Creole food which was a synthesis of French, Carribean, and black southern cuisines enjoyed a recent popularity, but is really rarely produced authentically outside of black social groups today.

The whole inner city drug culture, which is predominantly black has given rise to the popularity of Gangstas, and a culture almost all it’s own. Doubtless in the future it will be romanticized as much as the Age of cowboys, or the age of pirates is romanticized today.

In the deep south to this day black and white people tend to congregrate seperately and have different cultures. One has only to go to to Mississipi and attend a black Baptist Church, and then a white Baptist Church the next weekend to observe the cultural differences.

Go to New York and walk down Park Avenue, then walk in Harlem. You will observe many differences, just as you would observe differences in Little Italy or in Chinatown.

So, while there are clearly differences between black culture in different areas of this country just as there are huge differences in the Ocean depending on where you are, there are also similarities.

As for black culture in the U.S., it is not unlike many cultures of the past, where an oppressed minority provides much of what becomes popular culture. The relation between the Cagots and the Basques in France would be another good example of this cultural exchange.

31

I like George Carlin. I also get a kick out of the fact that he narrates some Thomas the Tank Engine videos. George Carlin! Doing Kiddie tapes! Haw haw!

But I don’t agree with this. Partly because I believe that religion has some cultural and family elements (at least for some people). That’s already been covered.

I disagree with his premise that “choice” of something automatically opens it up to scrutiny and the right of a stranger to challenge me on it. For example, I don’t want anyone to sit me down and deconstruct my choice of spouse, forcing me to rationalize and intellectually defend why I am in love with him or believe he is the right person for me to have committed to. Maybe George Carlin thinks he has a “right” to do this, since I “chose” my spouse, but I’d find it disrespectful, argumentative, and instrusive. I’d also find that it inadequately acknowledged that some things are visceral. Love and spirituality are not just intellectual.

Now, if I were running around claiming Mr. Cranky was the best spouse for everyone, then he’d be fair in pushing me on that. But not every “believer” is also a proselytizer.

32

Scylla, do you actually know any black people? The black folks I know would be surprised to hear that there is only one monolithic “black culture.” My former boss is educated, cultured, a fan of opera. Is she somehow “not black” because she loathes rap? Is Condoleezza Rice not black because she speaks Russian instead of Ebonics?
Is there a “white culture”? I’m not saying you’re bigoted because I don’t think you are, just misinformed. You might want to talk to some of our African American posters, like Biggirl and StuffinB, about the class and cultural divisions within Black America.

33

I find this quite patronizing. Let me ask you a question. If your boss DID like to kick back with Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre and couldn’t really get into opera, but was otherwise the same person, would you still think of her as educated and cultured? How would it affect your opinion of Condoleeza Rice if you overheard her talking to her sister in Ebonics?

I could, and am tempted to, read into your post the idea that black people are only acceptable to you if they ‘act white.’ But that would be unfair, I hardly know you. But consider how offended you would have been (and probably are anyway.) That’s how, I’m sure Scylla feels when you accuse him of representing black culture as ‘monolithic’ after he says :

For the record, I am not wholly with Scylla on this issue, but I think that he used the ocean as a simple elegant metaphor for what he was trying to say and you seem to have jumped him for something he didn’t say.

34

Well, I had hoped there would be some response.

I haven’t gone over the thread carefully (there seems to be a largish hijack involving some sweeping statements about cultures and ehtnicity made by ** Scylla ** that I’m not real clear about. But I caught a couple of things to respond to.

Carlin’s remarks as I quoted them here were by way of preface to his explanation about why he holds religion in such contempt. For those who may not know, he was raised a pretty hardcore Catholic, going to Catholic school and the whole bit. But that wasn’t the part I loved, it was just this explanation for why he feels he can and does attack religion in his act, among other things.
** Cranky **, I don’t think Carlin meant (nor do I) that he would come and knock on your door and proceed to trash every choice in your life, or that he has a right to. But he feels comfortable attacking religion in his act, which is a public performance you can come see or not. He would also, I’m sure, feel free to attack religion in a forum such as this one, and he would feel free to attack it if you in any way tried to proselytize to him, or use your religion as any kind of shield, etc.

His point, and mine, is this:

So long as the philosophy, condition, belief, etc. is one which is freely chosen by the individual, then two things follow:

  1. The thing in question, whether it is a religion, a political party, or something else, is something which exists independent of the person who holds it. For our example, let’s use Mormonism. Mormons are people who believe in the teachings of the Church of Latter Day Saints. I have a right to speak for or against that church and what it teaches. It is a thing unto itself, apart from the persons who call themselves Mormons. I have a right to evaluate it and judge it, just as those who call themselves Mormons have done. I have a right to judge it to be insane if I like, and I have a right to say so.

  2. The fact that you embrace it does not mean that have to refrain from having this opinion and expressing it. You do not then have the right to demand of me that I not speak against it because you have embraced it.

Now, it would be wrong of me, or anyone, to knock on your door, come into your house, and rag you about being a Mormon. But that is a different thing than you being in public and hearing me speak against Mormonism.

Have I made myself clear? I’m a little stoned, please forgive me.

stoid

35

I was pretty much raised as an atheist and remain an atheist. I have no desire at all to attack religion. IMHO religion does more good than harm.

I think Carlin should have the freedom to attack religion in his act, but I don’t agree with him. Perhaps one reason Carlin’s anti-religious feeling is so strong is that he rejected religion.

This is very clear, Stoid.

It’s often difficult for me to see the line between attacking a belief and attacking someone who holds that belief. E.g., Senator Jesse Helms, who recently announced his retirement, was called a “racist” by collumnist David Broder. Broder didn’t say Helms was a good peson with bad beliefs; he meant Helms was a bad person.

36

Nonsense! I like Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg,and I consider myself educated and cultured. Read this again: black culture isn’t monolithic, but diverse. Some black people speak English well, some folks like to talk in city slang. Some folks like rap, some like opera, some even like
both. There is no such thing as “black culture”, anymore than there is a “white culture.”
Besides, Yue Han, I was born and raised in Kentucky, and I speak fluent Hillbilly, because I am one. I won’t pick on Condoleezza Rice if she won’t pick on me.

37

Well, actually, I was born in the Ozarks, near Branson, MO, but we moved to KY when I was very young, so it’s much of a muchness.

38

I dunno. Diversity doesn’t mean that there’s not some common cultural ground.

And yes, I would venture to say that in America there is such a thing as “white culture” across much of the country. It is not rigidly white, but stratified among socioeconomic groups. The differences are also most noticeable in the Southern states where it’s almost as if there are two overlapping cultures cohabiting.

And yes, I’ve known a person of color or two, having been been born in the Bronx, raised just north of Newark, the public schools I attended were predominantly black. I went to School in N.O., and worked again in NY after that. Where I live now is probably 99% + white demographically, but I still maintain contact with some of my black friends and coworkers, and am good friends with the gentleman at the local paper.

Not that this has anything to do with it, but you asked.

39

Wait… you mean… just like Scylla was saying?? See, I don’t know where you’re getting monolithic. Nobody’s saying monolithic but you.

I’m just getting this ‘banging my head on the wall feeling’:

Scylla: I think there’s such a thing as black culture, but its something very big and different from place to place and time to time, like the ocean.

gobear: What?! How dare you say there is one monolithic black culture, that is the same for all people?

Yue Han: That’s not what he said, he said that it isn’t monolithic at all, just a common ground that can be wildly different between individuals.

gobear: Why do you keep insisting black culture is monolithic? It’s very big and different from person to person!

–John

40

Or, we could be talking about Southern Rural culture, Cajun culture, etc etc.

There is AFRICAN culture, as in various African countries.