Yue Han, stop hitting your head, you’ll do yourself a mischief.
**Scylla wrote:
and
So what I’m hearing from you two is that there is a culture common to every person with black skin, but it varies from individual to individual. I find that confusing. Scylla and I are both white males. He’s straight; I’m gay. He’s rural; I’m urban. I don’t know his musical or movie tastes, but I’m willing to bet they are very different from mine. Do we have a common culture, besides being English-speaking?
Oh, and the indignation you attribute to me in your dialogue is inaccurate. I like Sylla and we’re just deabating.
It seems to me that there are layers to culture. Some things almost every black person in America is going to have in common. Slavery is going to be a tremendous cultural icon, as is repression after slavery. Black people in America also share a unique heritage, in that they were weren’t a single socioeconomic group, like the Irish after the potato famine or the Italian influx. Much of the heritage and culture that these groups had was stripped from them. What was left melted together and when overlaid with the binder of slavery became a conglomerate.
I do not suggest that it is homogenous. There are many different types of sandstone, but all are recognizably sandstone. I think something similar exists with black culture in America.
Actually I’d be surprised if we didn’t have an awful lot in common. As gays are a minority within the straight world, you know a lot more about what my attitudes are likely to be than I know about yours. Doubtless, if it’s your goal to find common ground, we will.
I’d guess I’d probably be a lot more uncomfortable in a gay bar than you would be at a Church social.
You’re gay, but you can adopt “Straight” cultural mores when you wish for convenience, just as my editor friend has adopted Central PA mores here, and does not appear to be black culturally.
I have to totally disagree with you concerning your comments about Carlin’s current work. I think he has done his best material over the last 10 years. Material like “Class Clown” and “Occupation:Fool” are goofy and not very funny. I like the fact that his current work mixes humor with intelligent commentary. We need more individuals to get people thinking and maybe even question their belief system. Hopefully,This will lead to a wider perspective and a greater tolerance for others. Instead our country seems to be filled with mindless entertainment such as Survivor and Big Brother.(Which seems to be the only thing people are interested in watching) I really think it is your loss if you cannot appreciate what Carlin is doing today.
If it’s “my loss” that I don’t appreciate George Carlin’s current schtick, it’s a mighty tiny loss.
In the 1970s, George Carlin was breaking new ground with his Catholic-school reminiscences, and ANYONE who’d grown up Catholic (whether he was devout or devoutly LAPSED) could relate to his stories. Since I too, as a kid, used to “shop” for lazy or non-English-speaking priests for confessions (the type of priest who didn’t really pay attention to what you told him, or didn’t really understand it, and would let you off with 2 or 3 “Hail MArys” no matter what you’d done), I related to his “Father Rivera” stories, and laughed hysterically.
Even then, it was obvious he no longer put much stock in Christianity, but he retained a certain wistful affection and nostalgia for a church he’d left behind. As a result, nuns and atheists alike could go to his shows, and laugh heartily.
Today, George Carlin is little more than a bitter, spiteful, resentful, vile old man. He doesn’t make anyone “think,” he merely browbeats his audience. That’s why he rarely gets laughs anymore, just occasional applause.
And applause without laughter is a sure sign of a comedian who’s washed up.
Stoid: Are you saying he’s like Lenny Bruce?
Sortof like making fun of/exposing beliefs systems?
Personally, he comes across to me as Astorian says.
I read his book, and unless I’m mistaken or don’t recall correctly, he makes a joke saying he is glad when school kids die in a bus accident.
I’m not imagining this.
No, you’re not. But he also says that he doesn’t really hope that it happens. It’s a joke. I can’t stress this enough. If you listen to Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics, he jokes about rape. And he’s able to justify it. His explanation:
I’ve defended Carln before, because I consider him a comedy god, and one of my main influences for doing stand-up. If I have to, I’ll do it again here. George Carlin is one of the people I admire most. It’s not always about the laughs (BTW, see him live. I didn’t see anyone not laughing). Sometimes it’s about truths. And George Carlin serves a purpose. He makes a lot of people think. And he’s right-on on a lot of his observations.
And I can’t imagine what you are talking about with that last… I’ve seen him live three times in the last two years and the audience roared with laughter every time.
I have. I remember reading an article about a girl who came out to her family-only to have her older brother and sister tell her that they were gay as well.
I love Carlin’s stuff though I don’t agree with all of it. I have noticed his apparent lack of faith in the reasoning ability of any non-atheist and disagree with it. My personal philosophy is that I am unqualified to determine what the nature of God is or even if He/She/It is even extant. Greater minds than mine have presumed to know the mind of God or else proclaimed that there is none. In any case I am no more interested in God right now than He is in me (and for the last few years that seems not at all).
I had said that a black man abandoning “black culture” isn’t any less black. You replied:
Do you really think a bigot cares? I mean, that is what this discussion is about – criticizing people for religion vs. criticizing people for being black/gay/whatever. I don’t often hear people saying, “Oh, that horrible black culture.” I have, however, heard far too many people talk about “those niggers.” Indeed, a black person who abandons black culture is likely to find himself in MORE trouble with the bigots – the old “uppity nigger” type of thing. And heaven forbid he should date/marry a white woman…
In short, I think you’re missing the point here. A black person cannot become unblack (okay, unless it’s Michael Jackson – but I don’t think we can really count him as a “person” in general, 'cus I’m convinced he’s an alien being).
Regarding homosexuality, I pointed out that it looks to be a mostly genetic issue. You said:
This is a logical fallacy. Just because you would do something doesn’t mean “a lot” of others were.
The token gay guy on Big Brother 2 (Bunky) had a discussion one time with the token Reaganite (Kent) on the show. They actually became good friends. Bunky once explained to Kent that he would love to be heterosexual in this mostly heterosexual world, but he cannot. It’s not who or what he is.
So, you have one example and I have one counter-example. I guess we’ll have to rely on the science instead, eh?
I asked: “You think it would be easier for a person to live a lie and force himself to like women than it would be for an Amish person to simply leave the farm?”
You replied:
Not being terribly familiar with Amish women, you may have a point here. The men, at least, do have some outside contact. I’ve always thought the women do have some as well and could leave (indeed, one problem I’ve read about with the Amish is that too many of them are leaving and not too many enter). I don’t know enough details to argue that one specifically.
However, I really doubt Carlin was talking about the Amish when he made that statement. I think he was probably talking about more mainstream religions.
I notice you dropped reference to the Muslim woman in your example. I’ll take that as a concession on that point.
In response to my comment on homosexuality being mostly genetic, grienspace said:
Well, one person already gave an example, but that aside, just because something is genetic doesn’t mean a whole family is going to respond to it the same way.
For example, my wife’s mother died of breast cancer. There is a good probability that my wife has a genetic predisposition to the disease, as do her two sisters. That does not, however, mean all three of them will end up getting the disease. It’s a predisposition, not a death warrant. The environment can play a key role.
Similarly, just because a person has a genetic predisposition to being gay doesn’t mean s/he will be gay. However, if s/he is, it’s not by choice any more than getting breast cancer would be by choice.
That said, there are probably some who are bisexual and could literally go either way. Take a look at Anne Heche, Ellen’s old girlfriend. She’s now back with a guy (she was with a guy when Ellen originally met her, I believe) and has announced she’s pregnant.
Also, some people, while may not be TRULY bisexual or homosexual, sometimes experiment-sometimes young kids do, and that means nothing in and of itself.
