Well. That was succinct.
If you really want to call names, do so in the Pit. For the record, while you’re sitting on your ass reading instructions off your moniter to fools who can’t read a manual, I’ll be finishing off college and serving my country. I’m sure being one of 19 people who Cecil officially welcomed will take you far in life.
Still, if you want to talk shit, do so. But do it in the pit.
Well… thats funny since I have a bachlors in Biology a minor in Geology and I find computers ever so much fun to deal with! You get your education from Uncle Sam, if you can… good for you little boy.
Hehe… btw… RTFM before posting, twit. 
Oh, the Texas A & M Corps of Cadets. Well, they’re old enough to make the choice to be there, and they know what to expect. Not my cup of tea, but I’m not going to get in the way of people wanting to be subjected to that sort of thing.
Ok, what would have happened if he had of responded “yeah, get over it” or something like that (as I probably would have, having about .01% respect for authority)? Or if when being told to do pushups told you where to go (as I probably also would have done)?
I have no problem with rigorous military training. The foolishness described in the OP is quite different from the training I’m referring to, however. In the military, basic training takes place under the supervision of a trained Drill Instructor and other professional soldiers. This is quite different from allowing self-important pissheads [his word] to terrorize fish. The former is designed to promote discipline and self-confidence, the latter is just petty bitterness because “it was done to me last year.” Why is it not a good idea? Well Mr. Ghost, Sir is only beginning his sophomore year, and has already personally seen evidence that these kids lack the skills of a professional Drill Instructor:
My apologies for nitpicking grammar and spelling, we all make the occasional error, but this volume of errors makes it a tedious read
No, you won’t have to defend it to me. I don’t really care. It’s the greatest thing in the world or whatever.
My gripe was that your OP didn’t make much sense. It still doesn’t. In the future, please preface your posts about your little drum & bugle corp so we all know WTF you’re talking about. Honestly, I thought for awhile it was about some military school for first time offenders (the whole creepy ‘fishies’ thing).
Well put Waverly.
SGoA, Texaz A&M is a fine school and turns out some excellent engineers but I don’t see that the mindless humiliation and abuse of freshman contributes to that in any way at all. Some hazing can build espirit de corps but sheesh, cut the dose.
My own perspective comes from being enlisted in the navy. We get a little of the “knock 'em down in order to build them up” in boot camp but not a whole freaking year of it. The best hazing ritual I have gone through is for crossing the equator. It’s a very democratic one as it’s not just the new guys who get it. The executive officer had to go through it as he had never crossed the equator in his career. He may have been second in command of an 80,000 ton combat ship but he had to go through the shit (rotting garbage actually) as any wet behind the ears E-1. No expense is spared to make it a miserable experierience for all the pollywogs but it only lasts a day. When it’s done and the Jolly Roger is hauled down from the mast everyone on board is part of the loyal order of shellbacks. There is no need for continued hazing because everyone is now an equal peer.
I actually got a kick out of how Annapolis officers thought they were better than everyone else. I took the attitude that the UCMJ did not require me to listen to any bullshit. 
They’d get huffy the first time they came to me with a user error grip and I told them to RTFM but we’d soon come to an understanding.
As is certainly apparent from the OP. :rolleyes:
I seem to remember one of the young guys in FMJ blowing his head off in the bathroom one night. But maybe I saw the unedited version.
Doing pushups is not that bad. Doing them while someone pushes you back down so you can’t get back up is torture.
They can also handle being shot in the head, if it’s done right. Does that mean they should have to handle it?
And character is not built by being treated like a bag of shit. Trust me, I know. I had that life. The development of my character has come from people who weren’t assholes to me. Go figure, they’re more important to me than the assholes.
Should give you an idea of where people like the OPer rank in my “important people” file.
Well, let’s see . . . m-w.com has this to say about hazing:
1 a : to harass by exacting unnecessary or disagreeable work b : to harass by banter, ridicule, or criticism
2 : to haze by way of initiation <haze the fraternity pledges>
Darned if that doesn’t sound just like what the OPer was doing.
But I guess I’d better get a grip, too . . . after all,
Well, if you want to debate the virtues of the Corps Of Cadets/a Military Academy, how about we do it in another thread.
Freshmen are not allowed to ‘scope out’ (look in the eye) an upperclassman. If they do so to a junior/senior, usually it comes back to bite the Pissheads in the ass. Same goes for other “priviliges” the freshmen may pull out and not have.
If we were to crack jokes, show emotion, etc. in front of the fish, we would punished quite a bit more than the freshmen are.
So, the net effect is the Pissheads are pretty anal this sort of stuff. If this isn’t done early in the year, life gradually gets worse for the sophomores, a hell of a lot faster then it does for the freshmen.
I know, I know. I was tired. Sue me.
Damn straight, good thing it’s prohibited by state law, eh?
One of the reasons the fish have this life is so that they’ll pull togather as a class. You and your buddies end up doing stuff togather, having thanksgiving at someones house (if you’re from out of state), dating sisters, etc. You’ll be friends for life.
Plus eventually ways to get even with the Pissheads are formed. One of the best pranks last years was the “flaming cds of Death”. Pranks on Pissheads are all the more effective because the Juniors and Seniors don’t allow them to vindicative (at least, not without hard evidence.)
Yeah, I can see how someone getting on your case for not doing what you’re suppose to is hazing…:rolleyes:
I figured this was A&M as soon as I read it. Several members of my family have gone to school there, my younger brother is a senior in the Corps there now. Corps mentality pervades this University in a way that is hard for non-Texans to even imagine. (Evidence Space Ghost’s latest post in this thread) With that said I actually happen to be with the Space Ghost on this one - getting upset about physical punishment is one thing, but crying for being yelled at (in this situation) it rediculous. If this was Jr High my response would be different but this is COLLEGE, this is A&M, this is THE CORPS! If you are stupid enough to have join the Corps without expecting this you are an idiot. I am not saying it is good or bad - I am just commenting on the situation.
(I am making the assumption that there were no outside variables - like the guy’s mom just died or something)
<inside joke for Texans>
::smugly sips Gin & Tonic while staring out the window at gardner pruning bushes and servant waxing Rolls-Royce.
I’m so glad I chose SMU.
</inside joke for Texans>
If you get off on watching people cower, why don’t you just get a job in a dungeon, Ghost? There are people who will pay good money to be treated like less than a human being.
Here in real life, I often punish my subordinates when they look me in the eye. Similarly, I never look the CEO in the eye, and he likes it that way, especially during meetings. Keep teaching your fish these fine real life skills, enjoy your fleeting sense of superiority, and keep up the good work.
Jesus it’s like talking to a brick wall…
Jarbabyj, are you doing selective reading or something? I do not ‘get off’ on making people cower. Yes, I was astonished, and more than a little amused about what happened, but I don’t ‘get off’ on it. I do not take great joy in being an asshole. I am also not to just shoot the shit with the freshmen. If any sophomore were to do that, the lot of us would get screwed by the juniors and seniors.
Waverly I sincerely hope any feeling of superiority is fleeting(And I’m sure it will be come mid-terms). Our goal is to make them better Cadets then we are. I can’t tell whether or not you’re being sarcastic about the eye-contact. It doesn’t bother me, but our balls would get smoked if we let the fish eyeball juniors and seniors.
If you have that little respect for authority, you’d be an idiot for joining the Corps of Cadets and expecting to get by with that attitude. Since the Corps of Cadets is comprised of people theoretically seeking to be officers in the military, you’d also be a hypocrite if you didn’t believe in respect for authority. Certainly, the Corps of Cadets is under no obligation to retain you as a member if you happen to be an idiot or a hypocrite.
You however, strike me as the sort that isn’t dumb enough to do things you know you are going to be opposed to, and therefore would probably never even consider being in the Corps of Cadets.
“More than a little amused” sounds like you’re having a good time, rather than carrying out some solemn duty, and that’s what leads me to believe you’re getting off on it.
And you say:
How about ‘breaking with tradition’? Or would they murder you for it? I understand that your school/institution/group has been doing this forever and it’s great “fun” or whatever…but you said in the beginning that it was done to you and that’s why you do it.
46,000 wrongs make a right?
I’d rather be lead by someone who I respected than someone I’m scared of.
jarbaby
SpaceGhostofArrakis, the bottom line is you made him cry. You went too far. That just lowers you and your other sophomore accomplishes into plain bullies and also made the poor freshman look bad which will not end at the conclusion of this initiation period.
Why did you not see that you were going too far is because you are inexperienced. That is why this is not a good idea to have cadets hazing cadets. You need maturity to do this.
The freshman was not weak, it was YOUR fault he cried. Your attitude afterwards also shows that you dondt care about him or his feelings. This is not teaching this boy how to be a good cadet, it taught him humiliation.
You will graduate college and maybe join the military as an officer, then you will become one of those little dictator butter bars. I pity the poor enlisted men under you if that happens. You need to learn compassion which is always one of the traits of a good leader and so far you are a long way to having any.
[sub](I will ignore your snub about the Air Force cause I can see they are already brainwashing you with the inter-force rivalry crap, but the practices I listed are covered by law and all of the military forces cannot do them.)[/sub]
Weeeelllllllllllllllllll…that’s less a problem then you would think.
I guess the main thing you would be opposed to is running 3 mi or doing 42 push-ups. Getting chewed out for not following dumbass rules is probaly another thing. But that’s really the limit things you’re oppose too that yo have to do.
Now, if the upperclassmen were to do something that is clearly over the line (“fish, today we’re going to make you pull-ups in the shower stalls, with the hot water blasting”) then you have a legal obligation to call your military advisor (the service officer that’s alledgedly preventing this kind of stuff) or your company scholastics volunteer to tell them what’s happening. Then you sit your ass down and wait until they show up. Hopefully the upperclassmen that pulled this would end up getting fined/kicked out/jailed.
Another common way to get out of being hazed is the “bullshit” defense. “Bullshit! You can’t do that to me! It isn’t in the Standard(Code of Conduct)”. All freshmen are required to read it so they know what the legal extent of punishment is.
Hmm. Now, I don’t have practical experience one with dungeons, but I would think that, were I hiring for one, I’d only want people who displayed a grasp and understanding of what the clients’ state of mind was at every point; when and how hard to push, etc. That pesky little “compassion” thing that wussy deb2world is on about. (The idea that Air Force personnel don’t have to “deal with stress” is one of the funnier things I’ve read in awhile, though.) This sort of anecdote, and subesequent exposition, would pretty much end the job interview, I think.
I do find it interesting that the only actual service-people to respond so far have both noted that the conduct as described is absurd. I’d be interested in seeing if a more serious thread pops up out of this, to see whether or not that view’s representational of non-College-Soldier views on it.
I also don’t usually note this kind of thing, but “Dictator Butter Bars” should be added to the pool of good band names.
My own experience was at West Point, not A&M, but I found that the ritualized hazing that the OP describes was far more effective at producing men who failed to respect their subordinates than it was at producing men with a strong sense of teh responsibilities of discipline. I also found that it had an alarming tendency to produce Lieutenants who neither enjoyed nor deserved the respect of their troops. Lest anyone misunderstand, it also produced a great many very fine Lieutenants, and some of the first group went on to become fine Captains after a few years of experience with actual troops.
I simply remain convinced that the glorification of shared ordeal is not the ideal method of producing an officer corps. A subtle yet important difference between the service academies (and their civilian counterparts) and basic training, OCS, etc. is that the “future leaders” are not simply subjected to abuse, they are expected to pass that abuse on to the next class. Thus, in the very first position of authority/leadership that most of these kids will experience they are encouraged to use ridicule, capriciousness, absurd requirements, direct insult, etc. as methods to achieve their goals. They do so under a system in which all but the most physically abusive actions by a superior are considered not only acceptable but desirable.
I think many people would be surprised at the number of upperclassmen at military academies who object to these system yet feel trapped by expectations and tradition.
Oh, and Whammo. Your posts were way out of line.
jarbabyj
Your absolutely right about breaking with tradition. I’m one of the few people in my outfit who is glad we’re tossing bonfire out the window. It was only by the grace of God that that damn thing didn’t fall over and kill people sooner. I’m even more amazed that that juniors that were in the incidently (one of them lost his pancreas) * want it to be reinstituted*. I wonder what the limit is until the good students of A&M agree building a bigass fire unsupervised is a bad idea.
However over, If the goal of the Corps is too make officers, then we better do it by imitating the Serivce Academies. What we do here isn’t a patch on what goes on at West Point or Annalpolis.
deb2world
If you saw me, chances are you’d be laughing your balls off rather then being intimidated. I’m shorter then all of the Freshmen and have a speach impediment( I was deaf until I was 2). When the tears started, I thought he was trying to hold in laughter.
Hence the amazement and astonishment.
If you think I have bad stuff to say about the Wing, don’t get me started on the Band.
I’m sure the Wing would have plenty of bad things to say about the 2 Army Brigades if asked.