Of course, we judge other people-that’s how we decide who we want to marry or associate with.
What I think is significant is the * criteria * that we base our judgments on.
I try very hard not to make judgments based on race, religion or soci-economic standing.
I do make judgments based on behavior.
Although CanvasShoes makes an excellent argument on behalf of IDBB and I applaud her compassion the fact of the matter is the many posters have carefully and kindly explained to IDBB why her remarks are offensive.
They’ve also offered to help her privately if she’s truly interested in either furthering her education or improving a job situation.
I’m forced to agree with wring’s assessment-by continuing to tolerate her rants we’re now enabling her.
IDBB, its not very easy to admit that you’re wrong. No one likes to admit they are wrong. But there is a way that makes it easier to admit when you’re wrong and lets you keep your pride.
This is what I do when i’m not sure if i’m in the wrong or not. First I ask myself " am I right 100% of the time? Am I always in the right?". Thats easy to answer, no of course not!
Then I ask myself “if I know that I am sometimes wrong, could this be one of those times?”.
It just makes it easier to see the possibility that I could be wrong because as I know, I am sometimes wrong!
It doesnt mean I’m worthless or beneath anybody because everybody is wrong some of the time. This is one of the times when you are in the wrong.
I honestly believe that if you were to come back to the SDMB and say “look guys, youre right, I was wrong. I want to stop having racist/bigoted views” you’d be welcomed back with open arms.
But until you admit at least to yourself that you have some serious changing to do, nothing in your life will change. Don’t you want to live a happier life? Don’t you want to stop looking down on people simply because you dislike yourself? Change is very difficult but it is possible. And I believe you can change, because I had to change. Life is much better on this side.
Funny then, how by posting this you’ve done exactly that. Judged people for judging people. Its really easy, isn’t it. You do it without even realizing it.
Besides, it doesn’t take a tremendous EGO to let someone know that putting down immigrants, making fun of poor white people and using derogatory nicknames is wrong. That’s not judgement, it’s just fact.
I’d have to say that - as supportive as CS has been - she is still judging. In fact, several people have gone beyond judging and into diagnosis of IDBBs mental health based on her livejournal and posts to this board.
We all take our real life experiences and relationships and apply them here. Some of us do it with understanding - others don’t. I have always been challenged by IDBB - she really reminds me of my sister in law - a woman I will freely admit to disliking (and is a rural Goth who likes Disney and thinks I’m a princess), and I’ve always written posts to IDBB several times, reminding myself of subsequent drafts that I do not actually know her and she is NOT my sister in law. On the other hand, both Sven and Guin remind me of a younger version of myself - and so I have more tolerance for what may be very similar behavior (and I’m not accusing either of them of bigotry - more their innocence - similar to IDBBs - on what they expect from the world).
Sorry, I never said my assessment was the “best way”. In fact I specificaly responded to your first post by stating that I did NOT think that IDBB needed “just another pat on the head”. No where in that thread did I state that “my way” was the best way. I merely outlined the signs that IDBB was exhibiting and what, in part, those actions and words meant. I also said that I planned on continuing to offer IDBB support and assistance as I knew how. Period.
Your training, as you defined very clearly in one of Even Seven’s threads is in teaching people how to do resumes, and in “retraining” convicts, etc. I didn’t see any psychological credentials (not that you don’t have them, but you don’t mention them).
Emotional and psychological issues and training is something with which I do have a bit of experience. Both as a university instructor, through formal classes and personal study since my high school years, about cough25coughcough years ago.
??? I’m confused, where do I suggest “sympathetic stuff”??? I said, “I don’t think the best thing to do is to kick her all the way out of the door”. And for the record, I’ve been very blunt in telling IDBB what it is she needs to do to better herself and get OUT of what she’s in.
Again, and as I said in my post, I do NOT think she just needs “a pat on the head,” but by the same token, smashing her face into the ground, making fun of her, and calling her names is NOT the adult way to handle it either.
wring, it doesn’t seem as if you read any of the posts prior to this, including mine. NO ONE is saying “poor baby you’re just misunderstood” and implying that she should just “get away with it”. Those of us who’ve supported her have continued to line out her best options.
Slapping a person around, even when they’re “bad” isn’t the solution. As Manda jo said (paraphrased) “even when a person is on the defensive, advice, criticism and information gets through” yes, EVEN while they’re busy denying it, giving excuses as to why it won’t work etc etc.
We may or may not ever see IDBB come into her full potential. And she may or may not ever get there.
But, for those of us that care to (and no one’s telling you that YOU have to do anything regarding IDBB), we’d prefer to assist the best way WE can.
I do believe in offering help to people in need. hell it’s what I do for a living.
You are so wrong here. Of COURSE if you keep telling a person who is doing wrong “there there that’s okay, you’re not doing anything wrong, you just keep doing what you’re doing” then nothing’s going to change.
Where do you see anyone here suggesting that?
What we have been doing is lining out exactly HOW IDBB can change her life, (school, vocational, expand her horizons etc).
She’s had JUST as many people calling her everything from an asshole to the “C” word in here too, THAT hasn’t worked either.
So the old “tough love” thing isn’t any more of a coup than the attempt to guide her KINDLY.
I know one thing though, I’d rather allow her her dignity, such as it is, than lower myself to name-calling and kicking someone who’s down.
Via the Dark Magic of Google, these guys suggest that no-one really knows the origin of ‘bling bling’ though one possible origin is indeed via a song.
Well, the first half of the above has the gently baked odour of truism about it. Regarding the second half, I’ll just comment that those with the biblical approach to offence (‘seek and ye shall find’) will generally find what they seek …
CS- you seem to think that I’m being negative towards you, that wasn’t my intent.
I don’t claim that you’re posting ‘poor baby’, but when you post things like “I understand how it can feel” or “I know it’s difficult” folks in the space I believe she’s in hear “poor baby”. I believe that’s what I said, that she hears what she wants to. I got this from her response to my repeated suggestion that she learn spanish “oh, just come out and say it,”.
My resume: Ran a correction center for females from 1977 - 1991, clients had wide variety of issues, substance abuse, mental health issues, low self esteem issues, pathologies. I’ve got a Bachelors degree in Psych/Sociology. From 1991 - Present, I run a non profit, dealing with the same set of folks (only including males, now) see abot 200 people a year, employment related mostly, but it delves into the whole life/lifestyle thing.
Training includes seminars, coursework in Substance Abuse treatment, mental health treatment etc. I consult (professionally) with the local Mental Health providers as well as Vocational Rehabilitation groups.
Some folks I’ve worked with on and off for more than 20 years, folks who keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
Now, as for calling her names etc. I don’t believe that I’ve done that. what I have said and stand by, is that anything other than ‘you’re rejecting good advice. when you’re in a listening mode, call again’, or (in my case) silence, will be taken by her as sympathetic, see, they really understand me.
especially stuff such as you posted re: people w/low self esteem issues.
So, while I think you’re trying to help, having dealt w/people before who absolutely only hear what they wish to hear, I believe that she is indeed one of those, and she’ll continue, as she’s done here, to remain convinced that if everyone else would merely change and be nicer to her, her life wouldn’t suck so much. whereas, IMHO, the truth is closer to “if you would do some positive things to improve your life, your life wouldn’t suck so much”.
Spelling it out even more bluntly - it isn’t what you’re saying so much as how she would (based on her other replies her) take it.
Good Point. I agree with the spirit of CS’s comments, and while I may disagree with one or two minor things, picking them apart would be counter productive.
No, I didn’t take it that way, I just think that you didn’t actually read what I’d posted, as is evidenced by some of what you posted.
I haven’t posted “I understand how you feel” or it’s ilk. I haven’t seen anyone else in this thread (other than a few “Heck I read her LJ, her life DOES suck” posts), post anything similar to what you’re saying either.
What we HAVE posted (lezlers, me, and others over the past several months) has been simple solid advice along the lines of:
Go to school.
What? Yes you can do it, here are “XYZ” resources for people like you, etc etc.
And so on.
One can STILL within the context of trying to get a person to help THEMSELVES remain kind withOUT it being a “there, there” mere pat on the head and nod to them to go ahead and do what they want.
Again, I don’t believe that you’re reading all of our posts, for we’ve actually SAID just this ourselves. And that she balks at our advice etc. We (those of us who do choose to) just still go ahead and try anyway. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I personally feel that she’s worthy of as much help as I can give, even at the risk of her turning out to not accomplishing anything, or changing herself at all.
Again, at least I have given her the decency of treating her with dignity. It’s no skin off of my teeth, like you I’ve spent many years helping people with their employment and/or personal issues.
I feel, that as a person who was “THERE” and who made it out, I have an obligation to help, even if it’s in as tiny a way as extending a virtual and kindly hand to someone like IDBB.
Impressive resume, thanks for the info, I know I’d asked in the other thread, but it was a really busy one.
I’ve never dealt with Correctional institute inmates at all, only folks out in the workaday world and my students from the university, and unlike you, it’s not my primary job duty.
No, and I didn’t say you had, it was just a general statement referring to some of the posts I’ve seen directed at her. I just don’t think ignoring or name-calling etc, is any MORE effective than just going ahead and spending a little time on her, regardless of whether or not I think she’s “listening”.
As someone who has counseled homeless veterans for 14 plus years, I have to say that is spot on correct. I see the same similarities in IDBB that I see in my clients who never better themselves to get off the street. They don’t take responsibility for their situation, therefore, they will never be able to change it.
On the other hand, I see similarities between IDBB and a lot of my friends - who got slow starts on life while it hit them upside the head with a 2x4 and they were oblivious, but eventually took productive steps to stop it and have realized their potential. All is not lost - although advice is most likely spitting into the wind.
That’s it, in a nutshell. In many of her other whiney “poor pitiful me” threads, numerous posters have given IDBB tons of great advice about how to improve her lot in life, mainly about going back to school and getting some other type of job, something out of the mall and out of customer service. She always has excuse upon excuse upon excuse about why she can’t do it.
One specific thread I remember was about how she was resigned to be fired from Sonic because she was allergic to the hand soap at work. Rather than asking the manager if she could bring in her own soap or if he could order another brand, she just started a Pit thread about how she was sure she was going to be fired over it. It was freaking ridiculous how much she whined and played up the pity situation. That was one that turned into a “Let’s help IDBB with this situation” and she still refused all offers of help.
Until she wakes up and realizes that she needs to take responsibilty for her actions and that she is the only one who can change her situation, nothing we say will have any impact.
Something tells me she’s read every word. And I never thought I’d say this, but I agree with Diane (gasp!)
Until IDBB takes responsibility for her actions, her life cannot change. I think that’s why she refuses to take any of the mountains of advice that’s been heaped on her throughout her time here. It would force her to take responsibility.
I’ve warned her that life may at some point force her to do something to better her situation (along the lines of “what happens if your husband leaves” types of scenerios) and she flat out refused to even consider the possibility. That definately speaks for her maturity level (she actually thinks along the lines of “we’re gonna be togetha foreva!” which very well may be true, but to not even consider having a back up plan is just self sabotage) as well as her innocence, to a point.
She’s not ready to change. Simple as that. I think she’s going to need some professional help to get her started.
Her avoidance of responsibility was really evident when she posted that she not only didn’t know how to write a check to pay a bill, but did not even want to learn how.
