[QUOTE=Valteron]
The only thing they one can validly maintain that the RCC Church “says” is what Tom dredges up from documents at his disposal.
[/QUOTE]
And the catechism, aaaand the Magisterium, aaaaaaand Tom’s butthole
(just playin’, lots of love Tom)
[QUOTE=samclem]
All 32+ of them? 
[/QUOTE]
Who said all 32. ? I was going to list but how many does it take to be a lying hypocrite…One.
That was silly who would have said all. If I thought all were involved I would have mentioned it.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
In the current brouhaha, Valteron did not even have to respond to my initial post, in that I was happy to simply post the crrection without making an issue of it and without attaching any blame to him for the error. If he cannot get his facts straight and wishes to Pit me for providing the facts, I am content to let him display his issues for others to comment upon.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe Tomndeb is actually the Pope! In that case, I should not argue with him about what the RCC says:p
[QUOTE=Valteron]
Maybe Tomndeb is actually the Pope! In that case, I should not argue with him about what the RCC says:p
[/QUOTE]
Or Debb is the Pope and Tom just posts on his behalf. You ever think about that? 
[QUOTE=Valteron]
So if I and hundreds of other kids heard a particular thing from every priest and nun that taught us for two decades, (including a priest, trained in an RCC seminary, consecrated in Holy Orders by a bishop, and specially appointed to preach a closed retreat to a couple of hundred high school students) I still cannot validly say that the RCC Church “says” that. The only thing they one can validly maintain that the RCC Church “says” is what Tom dredges up from documents at his disposal.
[/QUOTE]
Not at all. You committed no fault in the original post except to repeat an error that had been poorly taught to you by those in authority. I have no problem with you regarding the post that touched off this whole foofaraw and even ended it with a statement that indicated I felt bad that you had been given bad instruction.
Where you wander off the rails (and over the river and through the woods and off the cliff. . . ) is in taking umbrage that I had the temerity to point out the distinction between the error you were taught (and which you were repeating) and the actual teachings of the church–along with which you attempted to paint me as defending a completely different set of teachings just so that you could use me as the focal point of your rage at the church.
Get over yourself. Pay attention to what is actually posted rather than what you want to have been posted so that you can take one more swipe at your upbringing, and stop picking senseless fights with me when I am not picking fights with you.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
That was silly who would have said all. If I thought all were involved I would have mentioned it.
[/QUOTE]
All those hippie drugs lead to short term memory loss, as well? You have repeatedly condemned the entire church and everyone in it for the failings of what you are now claiming was one archbishop?
I do not condemn entire church. I do believe it hid and covered up sex scandals, Nazi sympathising etc. They capitulated to kings and neutered kids so they could sing in falsetto. I was a strong catholic as a kid and feel like I got took. when I got old enough to think critically.I resent what I was taught and what the reality is. Does the church do good. I do not see it. I am trying to think of some Some archbishops nailed Law from Boston, Paetz from Poland, Groer of Germany, Sanchez of New Mexico … These are big people in the church hierarchy. I used feel very let down by the church. Now I pity it for being a shell of an organization.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Does the church do good. I do not see it.
[/QUOTE]
FWIW, I agree with you Gonzo that many actions of the Catholic Church through the ages have been despicable and completely antathetical with stated doctrine. I am from Boston and was extremely ashamed and angry when the scandal broke a while ago. With that said, I still think it’s unfair to say that the Church does no good what-so-ever.
I was going to say that I agree that the church has done some good. But,when I tried to think of it I came up empty. Most of my friends are falling into the rapture stuff now and are getting hard to talk to. They are praying for the end of the world so they can be sucked into heaven like a Kirby. It has all gotten so ugly and I lost my patience waiting for it to come back. I think it is too late. The time for church salvation is gone. The sucess of the Conservatives in using religion to get elected and then revealing themselves to be greedy war mongering bastards, yet the brethren has not tarred and feathered them. They have not insisted for more from their leaders or their religion. They let it die .
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
I was going to say that I agree that the church has done some good. But,when I tried to think of it I came up empty. Most of my friends are falling into the rapture stuff now and are getting hard to talk to. They are praying for the end of the world so they can be sucked into heaven like a Kirby. It has all gotten so ugly and I lost my patience waiting for it to come back. I think it is too late. The time for church salvation is gone. The success of the Conservatives in using religion to get elected and then revealing themselves to be greedy war mongering bastards, yet the brethren has not tarred and feathered them. They have not insisted for more from their leaders or their religion. They let it die .
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you need to call for help from some Catholics from, say, Sicily. 
Let’s see; in 10 seconds flat, I can up with a huge good the RCC does, and I am in no way a fan of RC or any other kind of theistic belief:
My city, Trenton, consists of of two major classes of people:
the non-working poor, who are largely thoroughly ghettofied, and a socio-economic level out of which it takes enormous drive and some fair degree of inborn talent and/or luck to leave. Many of the parents who are members of this group pay great lip service to the values of education, when talking to the educated who are counting them. But in real real land, the majority of those who care are spending so much of their time busting their own butts in order to pay for little things like rent, utlitities, and health insurance (oh, and possibly a means of transport that actually gets them to within a mile or so of their job and doesn’t break down twice a month). These folks have minimal time to look to their kids education, however desperately they may wish to do it. THe others are the many who have simply given up, accept the northeastern-industrial-city-poverty-culture in which they themselves have grown up - the only culture that they at heart believe is a realisitic possibility for anyone in their circumstances. Most of these folks simply don’t care enough to care about their kids education.
But the remaining majority of the city are the working-class poor. Both parents may work and live together, but bring home considerably less than $50K/year, with no benefits to speak of to cushion their expenses. Often these are ambitious immigrants, whose own resources, both financial and educational, are highly limited, but who fully understand and respect the benefits that education brings to a child. Because these two classes make very little money, and they are the primary tax base for Trenton, the city has very limited financial resources available. Further, since the two classes are highly intermingled geographically - usually one class or another dominates an individual block, but the next block over may be dominated by the other. So the kids from these areas go to the same schools, where they are in physical danger, studying with outdated text books they aren’t even allowed to take home at night (there are too few to go around).
THe thing that has made the educationally ambitious family of very limited funds possible in Trenton is the Catholic Church. The fact that they throw in some Catholic education is considered irrelevant - many of the kids aren’t even Christian, and even more couldn’t care less anyway. Schools can do many things despite family beliefs and social mores outside the school itself, but I seriously doubt that instilling a religion that is simply not accepted among one’s families and friends is not one of them very often. But the Catholic Church schools tend to be educationally superior to the public schools here in Trenton, and safer as well. The kids dress in uniforms, allowing little opportunity for snobbery or ostentation based on clothing worn in schools. And above all, compared to other private schools (even religious ones of other religions), the RCC schools are not only cheap, but local - the kids can walk to school because there are a lot of them scattered throughout the city.
So there’s at least ONE good thing the church is doing right now. And I seriously doubt there’s any nookie flying around between students and priests with the nuns everywhere as chaperones.
My sons catholic high school said it was proud of it’s mandate to provide an education to the poor in and around Detroit. They have closed 34 inner city schools. The one my son attended(it was expensive back then) moved far out in the suburbs and essentially doubled tuition in the last 5 years. They have abandoned the option for city kids and the poor. You might argue that the money spent in law suits broke the school system . I do not know. Want to discuss whether cherry picking the best students is good or bad for city schools.?
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
They have closed 34 inner city schools. . . Want to discuss whether cherry picking the best students is good or bad for city schools.?
[/QUOTE]
Speaking of cherry picking, I notice that you did not bother to mention that the city of Detroit has also closed over 60 inner city schools–and for the same reasons: population decline in Detroit has meant that there are simply fewer kids to educate. It is all very noble of someone who provides no support for the system to bemoan closing schools that need substantial funds to be kept heated through a Detroit winter when the enrollment has fallen from 250 - 350 kids to 80 kids or fewer; it is rather different for the people who continue to support the system to be asked to pony up the bucks to keep those building occupied by staff when there are so few kids even trying to enter.
gonzo, I’m not going to argue the merits of public vs. private schools in general; I do NOT support vouchers, I would never support cuts in school taxes (even though I am childless and always have been), and no one would be happier than I to see the need for good cheap Catholic schools in Trenton vanish entirely. I will match you item for item in the liberal atheist parade and am about as far from the kind of right winger you despise as you will find out running around loose.
But you said you couldn’t think of a single thing good that the Church had done recently. I simply said that here is a good thing the Church is doing now: They make a fairly good, fairly safe education available in Trenton to kids who otherwise had no chance of getting one, and by doing so, make it possible for the kinds of people who will, if anyone can, save this city to stay here.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
My sons catholic high school ----(it was expensive back then)
[/QUOTE]
I am amazed considering how shitty you consider the RCC to be you would send
your son to thier high school and pay big bucks for it to boot.
Wife insisted. I would have sent him to public if I was only one involved. We are in suburbs so it would have been easy for me to send him to public school. My wife wanted him to be church indoctranated to offset my influence.
I never broached the religious arguments. I never indoctranated.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
[The RCC] neutered kids so they could sing in falsetto.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the first I’ve ever heard of that. Please squash my ignorance and provide a cite.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Wife insisted. I would have sent him to public if I was only one involved. We are in suburbs so it would have been easy for me to send him to public school. My wife wanted him to be church indoctranated to offset my influence.
I never broached the religious arguments. I never indoctranated.
[/QUOTE]
You should’ve insisted harder. I can’t believe you’d allow your children to go to a place where they teach such horrible and awful things. You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re a terrible father.
http://the-brooks-blog.blogspot.com/2006/07/ouch-lives-and-loves-of-castrado.html The church has shown a limited respect for children for a long time.
When my son went to catholic school I figured if he learns to think for himself he will toss it off. If he didn’t he would become one of them. I hoped he would outgrow it.
I would have felt worse except I went to chatecism classes after school. I got over it.
I will, say Gonzomax, if you can’t even convince your own wife that the Catholic church is an abomination, I don’t know how you plan on convincing other people.
Note that I’m a former Catholic, but I got over it when I was 12. I suppose I never got the full-on treatment, I suppose to become an anti-Catholic fanatic you have to have been raised in some sort of Catholic enclave, which I never was. But still, sure, Catholicism is silly, but so what? I can’t muster up enough caring about the Catholic church to even dislike it.
And Valteron, sorry for misremembering your particular problem.