I Pit Aspidistra

Oh, now I see that you were replying to Miller rather than to me, so…never mind! I still disagree that my ATMB OP resembled a Pitting, though.

Do we?

How do you feel about the notion that transwomen who’ve fully completed male puberty may have unfair physical advantages over cisgender women, and that the current IOC guidelines don’t go far enough in nullifying those advantages?

It seems kind of shitty that Thing.Fish and Chingon can effectively shut down a thread and make all of work other posters put in go away through name calling. Maybe WalterBishop has a rep I don’t know about but the poster put in actual work to keep the discussion moving. The mod seemed to think the name calling was an equal response and shut the threat down.

  1. All the “work” they put in throwing around hate speech and lies? Fuck you, snowflake.

  2. I didn’t shut down the thread, I lost my temper and got a warning. People get warned all the time without threads getting closed. If there’s actually an intelligent discussion going on, that is.

The mod specifically said he was closing the thread because the OP was devoid of content and had poisoned the well of any possible discussion. This seems to me akin to an admission that the thread should have been closed immediately after being opened, and my ATMB thread was an attempt to get that admission clarified for future reference.

Guess all I have to say about that is “Who fucking cares?” Sports, and indeed every endeavor in life is chock full of people with “unfair” advantages over others. I’m quite tall, and have very long legs and used to be able to jump a mile and run really fucking fast, also could get up to the hoop in basketball no problem–is that an “unfair” advantage over a short person with short legs who weighs more than I do? Does the fact that both of us are female bodied make any difference whatsoever? I used to win bets from football players that I could leg press more than they could–did their “unfair” advantage stop me from doing that? I also used to win polar bear bets, especially against the boys, because I was pretty impervious to cold and could swim in very icy water without a problem for an unreasonably long time–did I have some “unfair” advantage there?

Thing is that trans people might have some ephemeral “unfair” advantage over some of the people in their gender but that is massively overshadowed by the fact that there are not that many trans people compared to the general population, let alone in the elite athletics group. Their “unfair” advantage, regardless of its origin, is no more noteworthy nor should it be legislated against any more than, say, the “unfair” advantage Michael Phelps has in swimming because of his freakishly long arms. He also has really short legs so he’d not have an “unfair” advantage if he decided to, say, take up running high hurdles and at 6’4" he would definitely have an absolute physical barrier to becoming a jockey.

Humans come in a wide range of sizes, physical abilities and knacks and it’s stupid to fixate on one cause as being “unfair” when there are so many others people completely ignore–like if two supremely talented, incredibly tall basketball players procreated and managed to produce their own damned team. Gonna say their kids can’t compete because mom and pop gave them an “unfair” advantage?

FFS, people, grow up and get some perspective and stop being so concerned about what’s in somebody else’s drawers. Cope. Trans people exist, have always existed, and will continue to exist no matter how many assholes fulminate over how “unfair” it is. Tough shit, deal. Or die mad about it, either way the world does not give a shit and will keep on turning despite your preferences and prejudices.

Ahhhh. You showed me

Poster writes a few sentences. This causes you to get a warning that effectively closes the thread for “losing your temper”. I’m the snowflake. Maybe you just can’t respond with actual information. Maybe you can’t refute anything that was said. I guess we’ll never know because, you know, you can’t “control your temper”.

I flagged it pretty early, because the first couple of posts were basically just in support of TERFs and anti-transgender. The responses to those posts were objecting to TERFs, and the web site linked to in the OP. There was little discussion of the relevance to sports, and it looked like the thread wasn’t going to be very productive. By the time a mod responded to me, though, it seemed like the thread was finally getting to talk about swimming and sports (around the 10th post) and I agreed that it might have a future. But yeah, that thing seemed like trouble to begin with.

I stayed out of the thread, even though I had an opinion, because I didn’t think I could respond and stay on topic (or at least on topic for the Game Room).

Dude, if you want to complain about the thread being closed, complain to the Mod who closed it.

I’ve explained my position quite calmly and logically in multiple posts both here and in the ATMB thread. If you can’t understand it, don’t blame me.

Apidistra’s hate speech is about the article. No one has yet argued that the trans sports argument is always bigoted. We’re talking about the fact that they linked a bigoted post in order to support it. And, when this was pointed out to them, in case they somehow missed it, they didn’t retract it or try to find a replacement or anything. In fact, they indicated they agreed with it.

The argument is that, by agreeing with such a blatantly transphobic article that repeatedly misgenders a trans woman, the poster is effectively misgendering them themselves. They’re just playing games, like if someone linked to a video that calls some poster an asshole.

It’s not about the trans athlete issue itself. As I’ve said before, we’ve had perfectly civil conversations on that topic before, where people were respectful. They treated trans women as women, while discussing whether or not there was an advantage, and how best to deal with it if they do, all the while trying to remain fair to everyone.

(The more recent threads always seem to ignore considering fairness to the trans women at all. Because it’s not about finding a solution but trying to get a wedge in the door to claim cis women are oppressed by trans women. But whether that should be allowed is a different conversation.)

I do, too!

Yes. I’m not sure what I think about transwomen competing in athletic events against ciswomen. It doesn’t seem quite fair to the ciswomen.

I think you can often tell the bigots from the fair play advocates by looking where the blame is placed.

Blaming the transwoman is likely coming from a bigot.

Blaming the sport for not evolving is not.

They do. The participation in this previous thread wasn’t stellar either.

I don’t think I’ve particularly noticed WalterBishop before. Possibly I have misjudged him based on the fact that every single other person I’ve seen raise this issue has used it as a wedge for a generalized transphobic agenda, Maybe he’s just really interested in endocrinology, and is sufficiently well versed in the subject to be qualified to question the scientific consensus on the issue. Time will tell.

In general, I don’t care about sports at all.

As far as trans people competing in sports, I have found that in almost all cases, people who are strongly worried about the effects of trans people on sports competitions are actually less concerned about the sports, and far more concerned about keeping trans people in their place.

That’s a fair distinction

I misremembered that thread. I reread WalterBishop’s posts there, and I think I was conflating WB with someone else. So never mind on that.

Strictly IMO, there can be a discussion on trans women in sports. It’s just that at least 90% of the time, those against trans women competing against cis women are transphobes. I live in Philly Dr Oz is running for Senate here. One of his ads makes a point of saying “Men shouldn’t play women’s sports.” This is clearly a response to an opponent’s ad featuring a clip showing Oz asking a trans girl “Remember when your parents thought you were a boy?”

We can discuss differences between ‘racial groups’ (such groups don’t really exist outside of sociology but leave it be for the sake of argument) But most of the folks touting the differences are scientific racists at best.

I don’t want to give the impression that I’m ignoring the rest of your post, because I’m not. I’d just like to get a little clarification on this point before typing a fuller response. Would I be going too far if I inferred from your opening sentence that you don’t see a need for transwomen to undergo any kind of feminizing hormone therapy before competing against cisgender women? That is, would you have any issue if a transwoman who’d completed male puberty, and who was, say, a high level sprinter or powerlifter (two events in which inherent male advantages are especially pronounced), competed against cisgender women without reducing her T-levels?

To be clear, I don’t think that’s something which is ever likely to happen in the real world. I’m just interested in where you stand on the general principle.

EDIT: Removing this paragraph because I didn’t see your most recent post before pressing submit. Never mind.

No, I don’t care at ALL because, to be frank, the level of social ostracism a guy would undergo who declared himself female JUST to win at a sport is so far beyond anything any normal human would willing sign up for. If some pouty neckbeard wants to get that level of a shithammer levelled at his self esteem well, I have to say the entertainment value of the subsequent social media drubbing would be much greater than that of the original sporting event could ever hope to have.

Does it escape y’all guys’ notice that being female in this society is no fucking cakewalk and no sane person would give up privilege without a goddamned heavy duty reason behind it? Let the poor bastards have it, being a woman in America blows chunks and nobody’s paying me to gatekeep female identity. Yeesh.

I didn’t call anyone a name.

Correct, you were Warned for a personal attack but there was no name-calling involved.