completely agree with this
but not necessarily this…
but we don’t separate men’s and women’s sports based on gender identity, we separate them based on biological sex, because of the bimodal distribution of athletic ability based on the sexes. So your gender identify is not a particularly relevant factor as to which sports league you should be playing in.
And, crucially, a law protecting the right of a small group to participate in society is not morally equivalent to a law forbidding the right of a small group to participate in society. I can say that the negative effects of the first law are trivial without conceding that the negative effects of the second law are trivial.
I was listening to an attorney on Dan Savage’s podcast today. She said that there are fewer than 10 trans NCAA athletes out of a half-million NCAA athletes (and here’s a cite). If so, the amount of harm to sports that this handful of people can do approaches zero. We shouldn’t be worried about that.
If transwomen compete alongside ciswomen, the worst any individual ciswoman will experience is coming in second instead of first in a competition–and a willingness to accept second place in a competition is a precursor to participating in sports. Whereas the worst a trans individual faces from a law banning their participation is a major reduction in the opportunities available to them as an individual.
The two laws aren’t equivalent.
I often find myself agreeing with babale, and often disagreeing. But his over-the-top abrasiveness, his bonkers hypotheticals (you don’t think I should snitch to Cocacola on a cafe selling off-brand soda, huh? I guess you’re okay with IDENTITY THEFT AND ALL YOUR MONEY BEING STOLEN?), his reliance on jokes that weren’t especially funny bAcK iN tHe nInEtIeS much less today, and his incessant misuse of “gaslighting” to mean “you disagreed with me” makes it almost impossible to continue discussions with him.
Well, we were doing it on gender identity, and there were remarkably few problems with it. But then Republicans decided to make trans people that Hated Other of the day, and now we’re back to defending trans people’s basic right to exist, like it’s the fucking '90s again.
Except that we don’t, not entirely. We sometimes say, for example, that intersex women with Y chromosomes and high testosterone levels can compete with endosex XX women, and sometimes we say they can’t. Sometimes we say that endosex XX women with naturally occurring testosterone levels above a certain threshold can compete with other endosex XX women with lower testosterone levels, and sometimes we say they can’t.
Yes, sex and gender are both strongly bimodal, but not strictly binary. And the problem with modern sports competition categories is that they try to represent that reality with a strict binary: either you meet this particular arbitrary competition criterion, or you don’t.
Transgender women’s physiological capacities, like those of XY intersex women, are not totally determined by the fact that they have a Y chromosome. There’s a huge amount of variation in their physiques and abilities, just as there is among XX endosex women.
So I maintain that we really need to think a lot more carefully about what restrictions we’re applying to women’s sports competitions, and who’s actually being hurt by the choices we’re making. The reality is definitely not as simple as merely declaring “well, transgender women are biologically male (by the definition of ‘biologically male’ I choose to use), and males by definition aren’t allowed to compete in women’s sports, so that settles that”.
Good thing that no one did that, then.
Can you engage with the actual argument, which is, it’s also not as simple as, “well, transgender women are women so they’re allowed to compete in women’s sports, so that settles that”?
Because the fact is that this is the law in California, and the fact that you keep sidestepping that issue is why I use words like gaslighting.
This.
That’s actually not true. I happen to have been in school during the odd transition when women and girls were fighting for the right to play on more sports, but there weren’t many leagues for women and girls. So a lot of girls ended up playing on boys teams. And the real problem with that wasn’t that the girls were getting hurt. Nor that the girls weren’t the stars – hey, they were happy to be allowed to play. No, the real problem with that was that boys were losing to girls. Because while the average boy is stronger and better at [pick a sport] than the average girl, and the very best players at that sport will be boys, it turns out that lots of girls beat many boys at most sports. You know, just like there are lots of cases where a woman is taller than a man.
Hell, a college friend of mine had a girl on his high school wrestling team, and when her opponent didn’t concede to avoid playing her, she did pretty well, and often won, according to my friend. If there’s any sport where i would have expected high school males to totally blow away high school females, it would have been wrestling.
Anyway, this was not a sustainable way to manage the situation. Because it’s shameful for someone who identifies as the male gender to lose at physical sports to someone who identifies as the female gender.
So i actually think that it’s mostly about gender.
At the elite level, all the stars are biological freaks of one sort or another. Swimmers with webbed feet, runners with weird mitochondria, whatever. Some of the cis elite athletes are no doubt hormonal freaks. If there were enough trans women that including them meant cis women would be forced out, that would be an actual problem. But there aren’t. This is not a problem of biology or or fairness. It’s a trumped up problem of gender and of gender policing.
That, too.
It really is that simple. We are women, and when we medically transition we are not that different from cis women. You just want to find a way to justify discrimination of us that is acceptable. Just like you downplay the Trump administration and Republicans in general trying to erase us from existence.
You say you support our rights, but then show you have at least some solidarity with transphobes. You are like a racist who treats black people perfectly equally to you in everyday life but also believes they should stick with their own kind and shouldn’t be allowed to marry white people. You can’t selectively support civil rights for a particular group and pretend you are a good person.
I don’t know enough about @Babale to know if they’re transphobic or not.
Could just be hard to understand and not expressing it well.
You guys realize there are gazillions worldwide who are transphobic and give no quarter to gay rights. In fact its still very illegal in some really awful places and not acceptable in better places. Either way “the other” always pays.
When professional ball teams hire out and open transgender folks you’ll see the tide turn. In the sports world. Anyway.
What a low bar for parents who love their children to aspire to. Thanks.
Alright, well, you’ve convinced me. If the only reason to have men’s and women’s sports is to prevent men from getting embarrassed when they’re handily defeated by women, then fuck 'em. That’s no reason to have two leagues. Let’s just abolish men’s and women’s sports entirely and let the men get embarrassed.
Outside of elite sports, i think there would be a lot of benefits. Especially on team sports, where boys and girls would learn to work together.
In my ideal world, we’d still have some sex-segregated sports at the high school level, but most sports would be co-ed.
And in my ideal world, each sex-segregated sport would decide how to handle trans players based on the needs and details of that sport. If someone wants to set up “hot blonde mud wrestling” leagues with no public funding or support, i don’t care if they only hire large-busted blonde women. Blanket rules are often a bad idea, and in the case of trans athletes, they are a terrible idea.
Yeah, I was being extremely sarcastic there. The fact that this wasn’t clear is… Concerning to me.
I don’t really think that’s the reason we split men’s and women’s sports. I think that’s such a ridiculous claim that I’m honestly stunned you made it, and I’m not sure how to engage with someone who believes that.
My wife played soccer all through high school, like I said. A few times, they played scrimmages against boy’s club teams, usually against boys who were at least a few years younger then them. And my wife s
aid that every single time, it was very obvious to her why boys and girls don’t compete against each other.
Since we wouldn’t accept anecdotal evidence like this in any other scenario, I’m not sure why we’re talking about it here. And as has been cited many times in many threads (I believe there’s an active or recently de-active one on exactly this topic where we could go to discuss this further), in many physical areas (ie pretty much everywhere aside from super endurance sports), peak women’s performance is around average men’s performance.
I knew you were being sarcastic. I just think you are wrong.
Agreed! That’s not how my state works, which has been my complaint the whole time.
Alright, well instead of duelling anecdotes, how about some stats? I can ping you with a question in the other thread I mentioned.
And not because i don’t understand that a good high school boys soccer team can beat a top women’s team. But because i think there really is a lot of gender policing hidden in the sports debate, and it was actually really obvious when i was a kid and there were girls playing in the boys teams.
Your state polices the admission rules of private sports that aren’t related to schools or other state-sponsored things?
If we are talking about random sports you do for fun, like the MMA class I did as a kid, then it’s all good. Have boys and girls. I fought girls in my MMA class, no problem.
Once a year when we went to a tournament, though, we were in a competition, and a competition should be fair, and telling 50% of the population “you guys can compete for fun if you want - awww, how cute! - but remember, you’ll never win first place, because you weren’t born with a dick” doesn’t seem like a fair way to handle competition. So boys fought boys and girls fought girls.
For many sports, the main place to participate competitively at that age is the school.
But what this always comes back to eventually is people saying “Well, I actually don’t think competition is that important to begin with. Why can’t we all play to have fun and get a workout?” Which completely misses the damn point. If you don’t care about competitiveness, YOU CAN ALREADY DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. I played on plenty of soccer teams that were coed, because they were just for fun. We all liked soccer, we all wanted a workout, so we played soccer. Sometimes we played with more or fewer players on a team; it didn’t matter. It wasn’t a competition.