I think this thread shows why we need to remind people of the evil that was defeated.
I’d just like to say, I laughed out loud at each and every snarky callout of this hilarious typo, with special love reserved for Mr. Ekers and his Klendathu ref.
Oh, and Mr. thornhill is a mud-sucking prat of the highest order. That is all.
One of the points I’ve attempted to make here on several separate occasions is that people on this board who appear to represent the entire spectrum do no such thing. Whether this is because the board attracts people of a certain, in broad terms, “progressive” ilk, or whether it is because once here the pressure to conform to the orthodoxy (clothed as a kind of unorthodoxy) of the board is just too strong, I don’t know. As much the latter as the former, though, I fear, given our love of fitting in/siding with the successful and powerful. And it’s that tendency that wars and barbarities (such as the Cultural Revolution in China) have much to teach us about.
I must confess that though I get the allusion, I don’t quite get what you’re getting at in the second part of the sentence. Anyway, not very important, since this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.
PookahMacPhellimey, it is indeed always bad when anything cannot be discussed in a rational way. As for the Godwin comment, I’m not sure that a thread about a WWII thread can be Godwinised.
Clairobscur’s point about the tendency to sentimentalise or romanticise the war, or to feel by proxy, if you will, with the questions it raises about phoniness, is well made. Even, perhaps especially, for people, like me, who had a grandfather or a great uncle we never met die in the conflict.
Firefly, my typo might have been made for you, at least when you were still in your embryonic stage.
Insults-wise, “mud-sucking prat” just edges out “dipshit” at the moment. Although neither beats the simplicity of gum’s “pathetic little man”.
While I agree with you that the man had little if any redeeming features, not every evil nut gets to start a war. Nor can he do so on his own; many people will have to go along for his horrible plans to turn into reality. How this happens is complicated and my own thoughts are that economic circumstances, for instance, are important, though those on their own are too simplistic an explanation too. But it’s the sort of thing I means by “complexities”.
tomndebb is right that I meant that I meant Dutch society, not the board. I also don’t really wish to debate the rights, wrongs and causes of WW2, as I don’t know enough about it to make a valid contribution to the topic. My point was that people should be able to discuss and question how we ought to comemmorate the war without being instantly villified.
You’re right, of course. What I meant was that when I drew some parallels to present day society I wasn’t trying to say that some of thing is see in society are “as bad as the Nazis”, which would be a huge exaggeration of how I feel.
Actually my family is from Pfungstadt, which is a small town about five miles south of Darmsadt, This is why my grandfather survived the fire bombing of Sep. 11, 1944. The next day all the fire departments from the surrounding towns went to Darmstadt.
As to your question: Schloss Wolfsgarten was one of the "Jagdschloesser"of the Langrafen, and isn’t even in Darmstadt. It’s in Kronberg im Taunus (about halfway between Wiesbaden and Frankfurt). It was not bombed. The castle that was completely destroyed was the Residenzschloss in the center of Darmstadt. Here is a link to some more info (in German).
After the war the Schloss was rebuilt, and now houses a museum, a library, and parts of the Technical University of Darmstadt (where I studied Chemical Engineering by the way). Most of the former “Altstadt” was not rebuilt after the war. Everything was razed, and most of the university campus and the modern shopping center in downtown were built there. Darmstadt has very few original buildings left from before the war.
IMHO it’s all the Prussians fault. In Prussia at the time of Frederick the Great there were certain traits that were considered very important. These were: honesty, patience, frugality, and above all: obedience. Whatever order came from above was followed, and never questioned as to its morality. In fact Frederick the Great was forced to watch his friend Hans Hermann von Katte be executed on order of Frederick’s father, because the two had tried to escape from a castle together. There were also rumours that Frederick the Great and von Katte had been lovers.
This tradition of always following orders is one of the things that made the Third Reich possible. Do you think Hitler would have had any chance at all if the Wehrmacht had been against him from the beginning? And where did the majority of the officers in the Wehrmacht come from? From Prussian nobility, that’s where. Once they had sworn fidelity to the Third Reich and Hitler, they seemed to be incapable of questioning any orders they received.
To this very day there is a mentality of obedience among most Germans. I am German and I live in and work in the Netherlands. If our boss tells us to do something here, the first thing that happens is that we discuss why this should be done (“dat moet doorgepraat worden” as the Dutch say). In a German company the workers don’t ask as many questions, and just do what was said, no matter how stupid they may think it is. This is of course a generalization and not always correct, but I think there is a kernel of truth in it. I myself have seen these differences in behaviour often enough.
Wouldn’t that be “lowest order?”
That is all. 
<nitpick>
Martin Hyde: “Hitler made it pretty clear in his many writings he was hoping for peace with the British, and would have preferred they never go to war (same as with the United States.)”
Soo, you wont believe Saddam when he says he aint got WMD, but you do believe Hitler when he says he isnt interested in invading Britain or US.
</nitpick>
Sin
Kershaw (in his book Hitler) and Jenkins (in his book Churchill) refer to this somewhat counter-intuitive, not to mention bizarre, notion and provide plenty of evidence that it wasn’t true. 1940 in Britain was a dark place to live (literally and figuratively).
Pardon me, but I’m having a bit of a problem wrapping my brain around this thread. Maybe you can clear it up for me. Are there people in here defending Hitler and saying that he was misunderstood? That his motives and methods were less ignoble than history records?
OK, I was wrong.
If the intent of your OP is to suggest that the evils inflicted on the world by the NAZI party were not solely the fault of Hitler, but also the fault of those who were complicit in actions such as party members and the german people in general, and any who willingly participated. Then I agree. The atrocities were not commited by one evil man, they were carried out by large numbers of evil people. Are you saying you are frustrated by people who simplistically blame Hitler without acknowledging the other perpetrators?
(I am not trying to suggest that all Germans are or were evil, merely that Hitler alone is not to blame for the atrocities commited in his name)
I think I am still failing to grasp what the OP is getting at, but am I getting close?
Uh…Martin Hyde… you screwed the pooch–After the US declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy responded by declaring war on the United States.
I guess we didn’t try hard enough… :rolleyes:
The OP being my OP rather than the OP of the thread, you mean.
Well that’s largerly what I was getting at about Hitler not being a “cartoon baddy”, yes.
Wider point was about people oversimplying the WW2 into a goodies vs. baddies conflict. Then they can feel devout about something nice and clearcut and in the past. Whereas they (they=some people in Dutch -and perhaps also elsewhere - society) hold very questionable views about similar issues that go on today.
It’s against empty rethoric and over-simplification of the issues and the hypocrisy of that.
(And NOT, in any way shape or form, pro Hitler or excusing him in anyway. I abhor everything he stood for. Just to make sure no one reads that into what I am clumsily posting.)
**Pookah…**You are absolutely right, I did mean your OP not the OP of this stupid thread.
Why don’t you start a new thread about the issues you mentioned. I think they are much more interesting than continuing in this thread about thread that was started six fucking years ago.