Yes, I suppose it’s possible. And it’s not clear to me how one might go about showing, empirically, the efficacy of different role models, so this discussion may lack a laser-like precision. However, arguing merely from the “it makes sense to me” camp: one key purpose served by a role model is to show, by example, that certain achievements are possible. Now, if a young black student sees that the vast majority of successful, job-holding, accomplished people in his life are not black, he may well internalize a belief that there’s something about success and jobs and accomplishments that eludes people with his skin tone. It is for this reason that I postulate a successful, job-holding, accomplished black man as a role model – by his mere presence he communicates the message that success and jobs and accomplishments are within the reach of a black man.
Agreed. No one is suggesting that the teaching requirements be vitiated. Indeed, we could return to our acting analogy and point out that the successful actor must not only be black to play MJ: he must be able to act, and he must be able to move on the basketball court well enough to portray MJ’s skill in that area. So, too, with teaching: the successful role model is chosen because he can teach and be a living witness to African-American success. Those two requirements are not mutually exclusive.
OK, I admit it. You found me out. I thought everyone would be impressed with my supposed chess prowess. However, now that glee has called me out, I must admit that I am unable to produce any games to prove my claims regarding same. After glee’s post challenging my claim, I hoped that everyone would just forget about it (which is why I attempted to deflect criticism by making a further claim), but you, Contrapuntal, had the guts and sheer balls to stay in my face about it. I can no longer hold up under your crushing onslaught. I am forced to admit that I have never played a game of chess in my life, don’t even own a chess board, and don’t even know the rules of the game.
Damn you, Contrapuntal! Damn you straight to hell! The next time I decide to impress people with lies regarding my abilities I hope I remember your dogged persistence and am able to avoid the lowly and agonizing position in which I currently find myself. I throw myself upon your mercy.
. . . which, of course, is one of the aspects of this issue that’s got me riled. Instituting a policy of racial discrimination should not be done on the basis that it makes sense to you (or LHOD).
And he may well not.
OK, fine.
You haven’t shown that *teachers *act as role models. I’m sure it “makes sense” to you that a teacher is a role model, but it’s not necessarily the case. I hated most of my teachers growing up (because, as a super genius, I was smarter than almost all of them . . . PUT TOGETHER!!!).
Barack Obama (case closed!).
You have proved too much–why should not every employer be mandated to preferentially hire and promote racial minorities? If society’s goal is to show young minorities that they can be successful, then let’s get it going here, people.
You are ignoring the possibility that (i) the black boys will know that the black male teachers were hired through an affirmative action program, (ii) which causes the black boys to believe that a black man can’t get a job unless the employer has a preferential hiring policy, (iii) which causes them to feel like real turds. (Hey, if you and LHOD can postulate about the psychology of the typical black boy, I sure can too.)
So John is a black male who wants to teach and would be a good teacher. You think the schools need some sort of new affirmative action hiring policy regarding black male teachers to get John to teach there? He wants to teach and has the ability to do so. The dude’s gonna teach!
Fred, another black male, doesn’t want to teach, but he would be good at it if he wanted to. Sam, another black male, does want to teach and would be horrible at it. Rick, another black male, doesn’t want to teach and would be horrible at it. These are the guys that LHOD’s policy will hire as teachers. I guess Fred may be OK, but his heart’s not in it, so good luck trying to get him to stick around after school to get his role modeling on, but at least he won’t be a shitty teacher like Sam and Rick.
Given the stuff cited in this thread so far, I don’t see any doubt left that having competent, dedicated black male teachers would be beneficial for young black males. By their mere presence they would be role models, or they could also take a more involved mentoring role (its a sliding scale ya know).
Focussing on what “Affirmative Action” means. I have always taken it to mean a lowering of standards for a particular racial group, to get more of said group into a particular profession.
I don’t think this is what LHoD is suggesting. What instead I think he is saying is that more should be done to get black males into teaching. Whether this is more advertising, bonded scholarships, more pay or whatever to make teaching as a career more attractive to only this subset then if would be a good thing.
Competition for teaching jobs would still be completely done on the basis of competence, and teaching positions would be awarded in a colourblind manner - only the remuneration / trainging opportunities would change.
It seems that the number of black male teachers is small enough such that this particular policy could be implemented on top of current teacher remuneration without “taking something away from” other teachers.
<bows>
I can’t believe I’m bothering, but Rand Rover, you are acting as if the placement of black (excuse me, African American) role models exists in some sort of stable world. Has it occurred to you that AA youth do indeed have many AA role models? I’ll give you some: gang bangers who became rap stars and multimillionaires, AA males selling drugs on street corners; AA males in federal and state prisons, AA males who have several young women on a string aka “baby daddies”, AA males who make a huge impact solely by their complete absence in the home and lives of AA children*.
IOW, if a young AA male never sees an adult AA male in a position of “normalcy” (for my purposes that is defined as a solid, stable middle class life), with all the rest ever-present in his daily world, which will have the most impact?
Re your point that black boys would somehow “know” that AA males were hired using Affirmative Action. I never heard of such nonsense. In elementary school, did you have any notion how teachers were hired or fired? Even in HS, kids don’t know or care about that stuff. To even address this point is giving it more credence than it deserves–LHOD is not saying that incompetent teachers be hired solely because of their race. That has been clear since the OP to most of us.
Two things:
you must have missed the entire debate within some AA communities re whether or not Obama was “black enough”.
Do you have to purchase a separate seat on airplanes for that ego of yours?
*Obviously the situation is more complex than this and positive AA role models do exist, but I am trying to make a point here.
I believe he posted that sarcastically, in part of his awesome effort to accuse me of racism: he was suggesting that I would use such language in describing my students. It’s part and parcel of his repetition of “these black boys” in quotes, as if such a quote, when talking about the African American males in my second grade class is evidence of unmitigated Jim Crow-era politics.
Rand Rover claims to be incredibly rich, amazingly clever and tops it off with being brilliant at chess - because he thinks all this will ‘impress people’. :smack:
It’s obvious from his posts that he’s stupid - and as soon as he’s challenged on the chess he folds. :eek:
So he’s desperate for people to admire him, but can’t even keep up a simple facade of achievement over the Internet. :rolleyes:
What an astute and 100 percent accurate assessment of the situation. You, sir, are a super genius and a master of the messageboard format.
I don’t suppose what really happened was that I decided to get your goat and play with peoples’ perceptions of me as a self-aggrandizing ass by OBVIOUSLY bragging about my chess ability in a goofy and intentionally over-dramatic manner, and Contrapuntal (in all his idiotic glory) and you took me seriously. Nah, that couldn’t be right, could it?
Go back to interacting with little wooden people–you aren’t so hot at communicating with the living and breathing kind.
Guess you don’t think that advocating racial discrimination and paternalistic treatment of minorities is all that big a deal, but I (and many others) disagree.
You found me out. 
