I Pit Martin Hyde

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

@Measure_for_Measure

Do you see the conflict there? I’m not playing word games: there are varieties of simplistic history, and Martin IDd two of them. You need that sort of conceptual building block if you want to have a discussion. So IDing “History by screech”, without pointing fingers is the sort of thing necessary for decent discussion.

The thing I would say is that I don’t think referring to leaders who implemented genocidal policies as terrible leaders or terrible people is an oversimplification of history. Now of course there is more context for why they did all the terrible things they did, but no one genuinely interested in the context would think that the initial conclusion that they were just terrible people somehow prevents a reasonable discussion. When we’re talking about people who were involved in a genocide, there is no reason to oppose characterization of the people who oversaw murder and abuse as terrible people.

The problem with saying Martin minimized genocide was twofold:

a) He added plenty of caveats to avoid giving that impression,
b) When he challenged people to back up their claim, they couldn’t.

Implying somebody is a Nazi is a big deal. Doing so without substantiation is a bigger deal. There are ways to say that Martin’s argument tends to dismiss the importance of cultural genocide (something which on balance I don’t agree with) while adding appropriate caveats and context.

I actually don’t see a real difference between making an argument that dismisses the importance of genocide and has some caveats and being a genocide minimizer.

@Banquet_Bear

We don’t need to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments (AKA white people).

Also, I have talked to regular American white people and conservatives, and they generally don’t talk like MH does at all. Frankly in real life I’ve heard the attempt to bound discussion to a narrow “reasonable” range of acceptable opinion from liberals.

The things I hear more from white conservatives are things like “no it’s OK they’re gonna put a black woman on a dollar bill” or “why is this my problem?”

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Banquet_Bear

…nope. We don’t need to engage with people who have ordinary median American sentiments (AKA white people). We can tell them to fuck the fuck right off and that’s perfectly fine. And if someone like Martin is peddling outright genocide denial then “shouting it down as genocide minimization” is the very least I would expect from genuine allies.

1. It’s (now) ok to tell people to fuck off in the pit.
2. That’s a strategy. Sometimes it works. I seriously doubt whether it would currently fly in an American political setting. My best guess - and I welcome correction - is that the hard/soft approach of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe, whose website was helpfully linked to by a Native American poster on this board, is generally better.
3. I’m not defending MH on free speech grounds. I’m saying that brickbats (generally by white people) are counterproductive. If someone who considers themself an indigenous person wants to tell him (or me) to fuck off on this subject in the pit, they have my blessing.
4. That said, I generally don’t aspire to allyship, because I don’t hand out blank checks. My support is extended on a case by case basis.
5. As an aside, I consider it a privilege to interact with folks from foreign countries on this message board, especially ones with very different backgrounds.

Civility is a tool of white supremacy. And Martin wields it so effectively here that you can’t even see what he has been doing. This was his first post in the original thread.

Generally speaking conceding your ignorance on a subject is a good thing, not a bad thing. And getting to the bottom of situations is what we do on this message board.

@DeadTreasSecretaries

The things I hear more from white conservatives are things like “no it’s OK they’re gonna put a black woman on a dollar bill” or “why is this my problem?”

That’s what I’m getting at. It’s not Banquet Bear’s fault, but he has a pretty loose conception of just how crazy conservatives have gotten in the US over the past decades and - I maintain - just how moderate MH’s perspective is. Which is why I’m arguing that the liberal white left would do better to engage with his arguments if they want to clear the decks for better policies.

I sympathize with those who say that the time is past for engaging with bad faith nonsense (eg Fox’s rendition of Critical Race Theory). But I don’t ID MH as such.

Substantively, there was a lot of ignorance in MH’s posts that I didn’t see effectively cleared away. And that’s what this message board is about. This isn’t twitter.

[DeadTreasSecretaries]

Personally I have more respect for the “why is this my problem” crowd because they’re generally honest about what they think and don’t act as though other people are not allowed to express vitriolic opinions about the worst of human behavior.

I guess it’s entirely possible that I should tactically want those people to convert into “white moderates” but selfishly it’s way more exhausting to try to have a discussion with the second crowd.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@DeadTreasSecretaries

I guess it’s entirely possible that I should tactically want those people to convert into “white moderates” but selfishly it’s way more exhausting to try to have a discussion with the second crowd.

Not sure, but I imagine conversing with MH is less exhausting than conversing with eg Scylla (a dude before your time).

But more to the point, when the subject is genocide, you damn well should be thinking in terms of political tactics. Otherwise you care far more about defending a point of view than defending an actual group.

It’s become increasingly clear to me over the past 5 years that there is no bottom to bad behavior: there are only soft floors. Our job is to reinforce and defend the old ones and maybe construct a few ones above. So yeah: tactics. I’m not ruling out brickbats and (my preference) mockery. But when the stakes are higher, tools should be applied judiciously.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Measure_for_Measure

Generally speaking conceding your ignorance on a subject is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yes of course, but then one should not follow up that concession with a pile of crap and conjecture about said subject, which essentially amounted to “oh it’s probably not that bad.”

This makes the original “conceding of ignorance” a feint. A ploy.

“Oh, I don’t really know much about this subject but… (insert a bunch of apologetics here)” It’s obvious bullshit. Sealioning, if you will, but bullshit nonetheless.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Measure_for_Measure

That’s a strategy. Sometimes it works. I seriously doubt whether it would currently fly in an American political setting. My best guess - and I welcome correction - is that the hard/soft approach of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe, whose website was helpfully linked to by a Native American poster on this board, is generally better.

…fuck off with this tone policing bullshit. Stop using other indigenous posters as a shield. I provided more cites in the original thread in my five posts than Martin has provided in multiple posts in multiple threads. My second post posted a link to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report, something that Martin tried to pretend didn’t exist.

Here is where the “hard/soft” approach has lead us: to people trying to pretend the genocide in Canada didn’t happen. Conflating genocide with homelessness. Its lead us four years of Trump.

So forgive me for telling you to fuck off with your “strategy.”

@Measure_for_Measure

I’m not defending MH on free speech grounds. I’m saying that brickbats (generally by white people) are counterproductive. If someone who considers themself an indigenous person wants to tell him (or me) to fuck off on this subject in the pit, they have my blessing.

What the fuck do you mean by the bolded? I don’t consider myself indigenous Maori. I am indigenous Maori.

Is this a prerequisite now? Only brown people can tell Martin to fuck off, but the white people have to hold their tongue?

@Measure_for_Measure

That said, I generally don’t aspire to allyship, because I don’t hand out blank checks. My support is extended on a case by case basis.

You don’t need to aspire to allyship. You can just be an ally. I don’t think anyone here has asked you for a blank check. But considering that after multiple posts and multiple threads about indigenous peoples you have decided to ally yourself not with the indigenous peoples but with Martin should tell us everything we need to know about why you are posting in this thread.

@Measure_for_Measure

As an aside, I consider it a privilege to interact with folks from foreign countries on this message board, especially ones with very different backgrounds.

Fuck off.

What would be nice if you actually listened to folks from foreign countries, especially ones with very different backgrounds, rather than condescendingly lecturing us.

@Measure_for_Measure

Generally speaking conceding your ignorance on a subject is a good thing, not a bad thing. And getting to the bottom of situations is what we do on this message board.

Conceding your ignorance and then proceeding to write post-after-post in multiple threads pretending to be an expert and arguing with everyone presenting actual facts is a bad thing, not a good thing.

@Measure_for_Measure

That’s what I’m getting at. It’s not Banquet Bear’s fault, but he has a pretty loose conception of just how crazy conservatives have gotten in the US over the past decades and - I maintain - just how moderate MH’s perspective is.

What the fuck?

I have written post-after-post about how crazy the conservatives have gotten in the US over the past decade. But that doesn’t mean that the “moderates” get a pass. Because those “moderates” actively support white supremacist and genocidal policies. They are just very polite about it.

It isn’t that I can’t see how crazy the conservatives have gotten over the past decade. Its that you can’t see how the “moderates” are just as dangerous and can’t be ignored.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Measure_for_Measure

But more to the point, when the subject is genocide, you damn well should be thinking in terms of political tactics.

…when the topic is genocide, you damn well should be listening to the voices of the people at the centre of it all.

Because here’s the thing: we can see how much you actually care about “defending the actual group.” You can only see this in the abstract. You aren’t an ally to the First Nations people. You won’t listen. You aren’t going to change your mind.

You said it yourself: this is all about “people who have ordinary, median American sentiments.” We all know what you mean. “Ordinary” and “Median” means white. It doesn’t mean Black people, it doesn’t mean brown people like me. You expect us to do all the work. You expect us to moderate our tones.

You aren’t the boss of us. You aren’t some sort of a “master strategist” that have cracked the code on how to win the next election. Moderating our tone isn’t the key to anything. The stakes are so much bigger than this.

[Mighty_Mouse]

We seem to descending back into:

Don’t call while racists racists, because non racist whites will feel more sympathy for the people being called racists than they will for the people the racists were abusing.

If that’s the case those “non racist whites” are just more deeply seated racists. They are just using the out-and-out racists to do their dirty work.

If that is what the “median” white person is about we are fucked.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Yes of course, but then one should not follow up that concession with a pile of crap and conjecture about said subject, which essentially amounted to “oh it’s probably not that bad.”

This makes the original “conceding of ignorance” a feint. A ploy.

“Oh, I don’t really know much about this subject but… (insert a bunch of apologetics here)” It’s obvious bullshit. Sealioning, if you will, but bullshit nonetheless.

Then answer it with facts and see what happens.

@Banquet_Bear

…fuck off with this tone policing bullshit. Stop using other indigenous posters as a shield.

I’m not policing you. I’m opposing slander, not tone. I’ll cite who I want, and link to websites that fight ignorance.

@Banquet_Bear

Here is where the “hard/soft” approach has lead us: to people trying to pretend the genocide in Canada didn’t happen.

Give me a break. I haven’t seen the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe weigh in on this issue, so your point is bogus.

@Banquet_Bear

But considering that after multiple posts and multiple threads about indigenous peoples you have decided to ally yourself not with the indigenous peoples but with Martin should tell us everything we need to know about why you are posting in this thread.

And that reason is? Sympathy for genocide? Just say it Banquet.

@Banquet_Bear

Fuck off.

What would be nice if you actually listened to folks from foreign countries, especially ones with very different backgrounds, rather than condescendingly lecturing us.

Am I lecturing you now? I’m replying. Are DeadTreas, Great_Antibob or thorny_locust people of color from foreign countries? Not to my knowledge, and I’m guessing no.

@Banquet_Bear

Conceding your ignorance and then proceeding to write post-after-post in multiple threads pretending to be an expert and arguing with everyone presenting actual facts is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Martin has an inflated view of his own knowledge, but at least he states what he knows and doesn’t know.

@Banquet_Bear

Its that you can’t see how the “moderates” are just as dangerous and can’t be ignored.

Yes, yes and we fight moderates who are if anything left of the US center by posting angry thoughts on message boards. Keep fighting that good fight Banquet! Now look, I have no idea about how a New Zealand resident can address the nutbaggery going on in my country. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say though that your links to Truth and Reconciliation Commissions are more helpful than your wilder accusations.

@Banquet_Bear

…when the topic is genocide, you damn well should be listening to the voices of the people at the centre of it all.

To be honest, I think it’s more effective to chat with the blue helmets with guns than with those under the gun.

@Banquet_Bear

It doesn’t mean Black people, it doesn’t mean brown people like me. You expect us to do all the work. You expect us to moderate our tones.

See above. Upthread I said you could tell me to fuck off. It’s not especially effectual, but then again neither is posting in the pit. I’m not telling you to do anything. I’m opining about what is and is not counterproductive.

@Banquet_Bear

You aren’t the boss of us. You aren’t some sort of a “master strategist” that have cracked the code on how to win the next election. Moderating our tone isn’t the key to anything. The stakes are so much bigger than this.

Broad brush nonsense. What did I say upthread? Brickbats are a strategy. Sometimes, they work, sometimes they don’t. During the last election I spent some time texting during a GOTV drive. That was one context where a cool head was helpful.

@Mighty_Mouse

If that is what the “median” white person is about we are fucked.

Pretty sure we are fucked 7 ways to Sunday, but the current infrastructure bill doesn’t look too bad.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Banquet_Bear

What the fuck do you mean by the bolded? I don’t consider myself indigenous Maori. I am indigenous Maori.

Is this a prerequisite now? Only brown people can tell Martin to fuck off, but the white people have to hold their tongue?

In a thread now in the cornfields, an NZ born poster corrected another regarding the proper nomenclature for Maori citizens. I was trying to evade that issue. I am ignorant of the proper language.

It’s one thing to tell somebody to fuck off. It’s another to imply that they are in the same group as those that deny that historically confirmed incidents of mass murder actually happened. That’s defamatory (I mean colloquially, not legally). It’s also a cheap shot. That’s different than objecting to tone.

[Cervaise]

@Mighty_Mouse

If that’s the case those “non racist whites” are just more deeply seated racists. They are just using the out-and-out racists to do their dirty work.

This is why MLKjr took “white moderates” to task. They claim sympathy to make themselves feel better but their actions belie their words.

[MrDibble]

@Banquet_Bear

Is this a prerequisite now? Only brown people can tell Martin to fuck off, but the white people have to hold their tongue?

I’m happy to take the proxy of any White people who want to tell Martin to fuck off

[thorny_locust]

@Euphonious_Polemic

@Measure_for_Measure

Generally speaking conceding your ignorance on a subject is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yes of course, but then one should not follow up that concession with a pile of crap and conjecture about said subject, which essentially amounted to “oh it’s probably not that bad.”

Exactly.

Trying to argue simultaneously that Martin Hyde’s posts are important because they’re correcting the historical record and that they’re OK because he’s confessing ignorance of the historical record doesn’t work very well.

@Measure_for_Measure

Then answer it with facts and see what happens.

That was done, by a number of people in the threads. I hope it helped for other parties reading the thread, but it didn’t seem to make a dent in Martin Hyde’s claims.

@Measure_for_Measure

I’m opposing slander, not tone.

It’s not slander when it’s true. You keep claiming Martin Hyde wasn’t minimizing; but he was. And you keep claiming that saying he was minimizing is the same thing as claiming that he was denying holocausts in general; which it isn’t.

@Measure_for_Measure

I haven’t seen the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe weigh in on this issue, so your point is bogus.

WTF?!

What has whether or not you personally have seen any specific statement from the Mille Lacs Band on the subject have to do with whether there are other people entirely trying to pretend the Canadian genocide didn’t happen?

@Measure_for_Measure

Am I lecturing you now?

Well, yeah, you rather are.

@Measure_for_Measure

Are DeadTreas, Great_Antibob or thorny_locust people of color from foreign countries? Not to my knowledge, and I’m guessing no.

FWIW, I’m USA born of Ashkenazi heritage. Which counts as white most of the time, except when it doesn’t. It certainly counts as white in this context.

@Measure_for_Measure

Martin has an inflated view of his own knowledge, but at least he states what he knows and doesn’t know.

No, he doesn’t. He states that he doesn’t know something and then proceeds to make statements claiming that he knows more about it than people bringing actual experience and/or cites. – come to think of it “has an inflated view of his own knowledge, but at least he states what he knows and doesn’t know” doesn’t even make a whole lot of sense. One can only state what one doesn’t know if one realizes one doesn’t know it. A blanket statement of ‘I don’t know anything about this subject’ followed by multiple claims of specific knowledge about it isn’t stating what one doesn’t know.

@Measure_for_Measure

To be honest, I think it’s more effective to chat with the blue helmets with guns than with those under the gun.

But if you don’t listen to those under the gun, you can’t get any idea what to say.

And when the purpose of the guns is specifically to silence their voices, saying that it doesn’t matter to hear those voices is not helpful.

[k9bfriender]

@Thing.Fish

No doubt he was losing his shit and name-calling by the time he flounced from the thread, but so were a lot of other people.

I’ll just point out that I called him no names, nor was losing my shit, when he attacked me for not understanding why he was responding to someone else’s post while addressing me.

He was looking for a fight, he wasn’t forced into one.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Measure_for_Measure

Then answer it with facts and see what happens.

I did, and the fact were ignored. All I got back was insults.

[k9bfriender]

Did you try agreeing with him unquestioningly?

Then he may not have called you sheep.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Measure_for_Measure

In a thread now in the cornfields, an NZ born poster corrected another regarding the proper nomenclature for Maori citizens. I was trying to evade that issue. I am ignorant of the proper language.

…others have addressed the other stuff you wrote. But regarding this: that NZ born poster is a loud-and-proud pro-colonialists. If he was in America he would be waving the confederate flag.

“Maori are not indigenous” is a typical talking point from organizations like the One NZ Foundation and Hobson’s Pledge. Its nonsense. Example here:

http://onenzfoundation.co.nz/customary-rights-to-indigenous-people-but-maori-are-not-indigenous-to-new-zealand/

https://www.hobsonspledge.nz/reject_co-governance

It’s conspirational racist garbage. Martini uses the same tactics as Martin does: people believe what he says because he says them politely and authoritatively. But he does not speak for Maori.

Ministerial Statements — UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous...

@Measure_for_Measure

It’s another to imply that they are in the same group as those that deny that historically confirmed incidents of mass murder actually happened.

Martin is in the same group as those that minimize that historically confirmed incidents of mass murder actually happened. Shouting it down as genocide minimization is simply speaking the truth, and the very least we can do. We need to be explicit that this is what he (and others) are doing.

Because of stuff like this.

In this post that I made a month ago I posted a link to a story that showed how 5 indigenous Australians had died already in custody this year.

How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide?

…I was the first person to use the word genocide in the unmarked grave thread. But in my first post I provided clear context. I quoted from and provided a link to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada’s 2015 report. In that report they stated: Using the word genocide, in this specific context, didn’t seem to be particularly uncontroversial to me. But apparently not. But it really doesn’t matter. Because it doesn’t matter what I say people aren’t going to listen to me. Because e…

That number is now 10. 10 indigenous people have died in Australian custody since March.

This isn’t history. That’s the point.

Aboriginal death in custody at Royal Adelaide Hospital

[Sunny_Daze]

@Banquet_Bear

Is this a prerequisite now? Only brown people can tell Martin to fuck off, but the white people have to hold their tongue?

I’ve told him to fuck off and I’m happy to keep doing it. MfM can join him.

@Banquet_Bear

Because those “moderates” actively support white supremacist and genocidal policies. They are just very polite about it.

It isn’t that I can’t see how crazy the conservatives have gotten over the past decade. Its that you can’t see how the “moderates” are just as dangerous and can’t be ignored.

Exactly. I’m not seeing a middle ground here. If they’re not calling bullshit, then they’re part of the problem.

[RickJay]

@Banquet_Bear

10 indigenous people have died in Australian custody since March .

This isn’t history. That’s the point.

The extent to which indigenous people are overrepresented in the Canadian penal system is dizzying. This is an international thing. I mean, the numbers are eye-popping.

I do not seem to be able to find, at the moment, how many indigenous people died in police custody or prison in Canada this year, but whatever it is it’s going to be unbelievably disproportionate. In Canada, indigenous people are about one third of all people in jail or prison despite being less than one twentieth of the population.

While granting I think I prison system needs to be totally overhauled for everyone, and that we need way less imprisonment in general, it’s pretty obvious what the first and most pressing problem is just from those numbers. It’s not history here, either.