My mom almost married a Greek guy … so I could have popped out Platsdeutsch-Greek … talk about a messed up idea. Would I be American mutt, or Greek in your eyes? [Guy in the US going to university, she says they probably would have ended up staying in the US. This was back in 1947-8]
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No, you’re Hispanic if you’re a member of that ethnicity/cultural group. Which true, it has nothing to do with race, but there ARE things that define it. My husband is a blue-eyed, blonde Hispanic, who grew up in a home with a parent who was an immigrant from a Spanish-speaking country. He has a Spanish last name. They followed ethnic traditions from his dad’s homeland. He’s Hispanic…and it’s not just his “say-so,” he’s Hispanic because he IS.
That being said, his connection to the heritage is stronger than, say, our kids’ connection, and by the time the family is 1/32 Hispanic, I think we can safely say there isn’t a connection at all. This is no different than someone claiming to be Native American if they are culturally removed from that group. It’s offensive to say or imply that they understand the experience of being Native American.
If you’re not a Legal member of a recognized Tribe, you are not a Amerind, legally. You can claim no benefits, etc. Legally, it’s the same thing.
If “Amerind” means American Indian, I disagree with this assertion. Being an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe does have meaning and consequences, but it is not the only definition of American Indian. My children are not enrolled, but they are American Indian. They can benefit from things like affirmative action and native preference in hiring (tribal enterprises). They don’t get per capita checks from their tribe, but they are “legally” as Indian as I am “legally” white, Jewish, male, etc.
You are “legally” white, Jewish, etc as you “self-identify” as such. You can qualify as Black and get Affirmative Action if you are blonde, Blue-eyed, Nordic and all you ancestors going back four generations were also that way. You simply state “I self-identify as Black”, that is the sole “qualification”.
About “Amerind”= what word are you gonna use? “Indian”? Not PC, and excludes the Eskimo. Native American? I am a native American, I was born here.
I know people who think they can assert any definition of Jewish, from having a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother, to simply adopting rituals and deciding this is what they believe, but sorry, there is a Talmudic definition of “Jewish,” and that is the one that counts. You can say you have Jewish ancestry, or that you find Judaism attractive, credible, or satisfying, but unless you are halakhically Jewish, you can’t call yourself a Jew.
What was it someone said in the heterosexual lesbian thread that was so funny-- something about identifying with the term strongly enough to accept being at odds with it semantically? gosh, it was good. It applies here.
No, we did not. People we are distantly related to did these things - some of us are just more distantly related than others. Don’t be a racist piece of shit.
“Yes, but my identification with that culture and identity is important enough to me that I’m willing to be at odds with certain elements of common linguistic usage.”
Definitely, there are some white people (with or without 1/16 Cherokee princess heritage), who identify with native American culture enough that they are willing to be at odds with certain elements of common linguistic usage.
Then, of course, there is the problem that the linguistic usage of various terms for the original people to settle North America are kinda sloppy.
Does not the Talmudic definition differ between Orthodox and Reform?
However, there are differences of opinion among the various branches of Judaism in the application of this definition
It’s a little silly for people to claim a certain ethnicity based on genetics, if culturally they don’t have the least bit of relationship to it.
For example, a friend is 1/8 Mexican by genetics, but he’s as white american as you can be- culturally and physically. Auburn hair, freckles, pasty white skin, and grew up in Arkansas. It would be absurd, and probably not a little bit offensive to some, if he was to claim that he’s hispanic. As far as my personal ancestry is concerned, it’s predominantly English and German, with smaller, but still significant doses of Scots-Irish and French. But I don’t claim to be “German”, or “English” or any of the others- I’m an American, and if you want to get more granular, a Texan.
There’s only one Talmud-- well, there’s the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, but that’s not what I mean. When Reform Judaism differs, it’s usually because someone has decided to simply disregard what the Talmud says. That’s kind of like deciding which stop signs you are going to obey.
This just brings us back to “Jewish” being both an ethnicity and a religion. My father was Jewish. My mother isn’t. I’m ethnically 1/2 Jewish. I’m not a member of the religion.
My wife is Cherokee of the Tahlequah Cherokees although she would like to change allegiance to the Smoky Mountain band. There is a pretty easy determination of one’s native American heritage. The next time someone claims it, ask if they have their CBID. If they don’t know what one is, they likely are NA by family stories. When the Govt says you are NA, then you are.
That’s pretty much what I said. If you wanted to be a member of the religion, you would need to convert. But if your father was an Ashkenazic Jew, and you married a woman whose father, but not mother, was also an Ashkenazic Jew, while neither of you would be Jewish, you would still do well to get tested for the Tay-Sachs gene before you have children.
On the flip side of what the OP is complaining about, I have met people who said their primary identity was black (or African-American), but they were pretty sure they had small amount of [name of tribe, which I don’t recall] in their ancestry, and like every African-American, they had some white people in their lineage. I’ve also had white people say something similar regarding a trace of Asian or North African, but their ethnic identity is Irish, or Italian, or Greek.
It’s always white people, though, who seem to want to cling to that “1/16th Cherokee,” as though that informs their experience or personality more than the 1/2 WASP, or 1/4 Polish, even though they went to a private school in upstate New York, and were an Episcopalian altar boy (or girl), and know how to make pierogies from scratch, but can’t even count to five in the Cherokee language, and look at you blankly if you say “Tsalagi.”
The Jewish ethnicity is something I struggle with. I come from a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, but have no accurate history to work from. However, Judaism is not my religion, I’m areligious and I don’t want to give anyone a different impression, but I’m not anti-religious either. My wife comes from a mixed Sicilian-Irish-English-German background, but we tested for Tay Sachs anyway because of my background, incidence is high enough for concern. It’s difficult because Jews often think of me as Jewish, they recognize my jokes and cultural references. I know a bunch of Israeli non-practicing Orthodox Jews who are no different than I am but don’t understand why I don’t say I’m Jewish because they are no different than I am or numerous other Israeli Jews.
So why don’t I just say I’m ethnically Jewish or something like that? I guess the main reason is because it shouldn’t matter.
Well, for a lot of us, it’s a matter of being what amounts to an immigrant mongrel, and not really having an “american” ethnic group that we can point at as ours. Some people just roll with it, and some people claim ethnic groups that they’re only marginally a part of - 1/16 Cherokee is a good example, just like the millions of “Irish” or “Italian” or “German” or “Swedish” people out there in the US who have more in common with each other than anyone in Europe.
I think this happens with many minorities. Periodically, people come into my shops claiming to be part Roma wanting to “become more involved with the Roma community”. But they know not a word of Romany (our language) in any dialect, know nothing about Roma religious tradiations and cultures or what they claim to know was obviously cribbed from a new age religious book, and worse admire and comform to social practices (sexual promiscuity in particular) which they believe are ours, but are in fact the fastest way to get denounced and shunned by actual Roma.
Suppose someone told you they had Roma ancestors* but knew nothing about it *and wanted to learn. How would they be treated. Is it offensive if they’re being honest?
Probably a lot of them want to learn to tell fortunes and rock a head scarf. And they use the word “gypsy.” I’m sure that’s not true of all of them, but it’s true of enough to make ZPG wary. Kinda the way I’m wary of Christians who ask me to take them to a synagogue service, because Judaism is part of their Christian background.
Don’t get me wrong, if someone wants to learn about Judaism for its own sake, even if they are treating it purely as an academic subject, I’m happy to oblige. It’s only when people want Judaism to somehow enhance their Christian experience that I get a bad taste in my mouth.
Good point
I understand that. It’s related to the topic of the thread. And part of what I mentioned above, one reason I don’t want to identify myself as Jewish because I think it’s insulting to people who are practicing. I don’t have a lot of respect for people who call themselves ‘devout’ anything, because they’re usually not. But the exception is Orthodox Jews who make their religious practice a serious daily part of their lives. The most devout are some of the kindest nicest people I’ve ever met, and it’s not a simple lifestyle.