I don’t see much of a dilemma. You meet people where they are. There’s a extremely broad potential anti-fascist coalition because fascism doesn’t work well. Ultra-conservative Republicanism (tax cuts for the rich, tax hikes for the middle class, elevated interest rates, strong dollar, deindustrialisation, attacks on unions, squeezing the poor) works fine. I don’t like the outcomes, but the economy will continue to chug along, (There’s a built-in risk of Great Depression and ecological collapse though.) But policy built on the passing fancies of a mad king doesn’t work well. Which creates electoral opportunities, if we focus on them, as opposed to focusing on unpopular parts of the left-of-center platform.
I agree with the idea of appealing to the center rather than appealing to the left (which I’m sure surprises nobody in this thread). I feel there’s a better chance of success there. And I feel that succeeding in defeating Trump and the Republicans is more important than scoring a moral victory.
I hate to say this out loud but I think moderate left voters are already locked in as supporters of our cause. They’re not going to jump ship and start supporting Trump and the Republicans. Ruthless as it sounds, we can afford to take them for granted right now as we work on defeating the main enemy.
As for the more extreme left wing who feel that there is no significant difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden, I don’t feel we can afford to reach out to them. I feel that a platform that would appeal to these people would be so extreme that we would lose ten voters in the center for everyone we gain on the left.
We’re in the midst of an unprecedented national emergency. This is the time when we need to build the strongest coalition we can, not go questing after some pure ideal.
After we defeat Trump and the Republicans and democracy is safe, we can then start figuring out what direction we should be going in the future.
Not what I remember, when Lyndon B. Johnson did help Israel in the 6 days war, he then pressured Israel to stop when Israel’s victory was clear. Nixon, when the Yom kippur war took place later, sent a lot of military material to keep Israel afloat, and then he also pressured Israel to end the war after Israel had militarily regained its advantage. (Notice that I do support Israel when looking at what took place. I do, however, draw the line after Israel has gained the advantage like real presidents used to do)
It is really ugly with Trumpo, he is not willing to pressure Israel to end a situation where the IDF has gained the advantage but is now reaching for the “endless war” model, like the US did in Vietnam.
It’s the old Leftist Criticism Two-Step. If Leftists won’t vote for a centrist candidate, it’s the Leftists’ fault for not compromising. If Centrists won’t vote for a Leftist candidate, it’s the Leftists’ fault for running someone “too extreme.”
I mean, of course we are? That’s the feedback I would give “never Trumper” Republicans, for example. That would be my feedback for the people who align politically with The Bulwark, for example.
And obviously it’s what I would tell full on Republicans; I just don’t expect them to listen.
‘Go further Left’ is what plenty of us were telling Manchin, or Sinema.
I reject the idea that “nobody is telling anybody to appeal left”, it’s pretty obviously untrue.
And if you look at Kamala’s campaign, it was further to the left than Obama or Hillary’s. Clearly, someone “told” her (through their feedback rather than outright, presumably) to do that.
Is there an “extreme left wing” who think Biden and Trump are the same? If seen people say that either one would support the Gazan genocide, which seems reasonable, but in a general sense almost all leftists agree that Trump is worse, its just that Biden (or Harris) doesnt pass the bar of electable for them. Not everyone agrees with the idea of just voting for the lesser evil.
The bigger issue is that too many moderates support these evils. I’d be interested to hear what sort of “extreme” policies you think would be needed to attract these leftists. It usually boils down to things like “Stop supporting genocide” or “Reform the police so they stop shooting black people”, or “Do something/anything about climate change”, none of which should be extreme in a sane country.
Yes - Hasan Piker (the second largest political streamer on Twitch and the largest left leaning one) has repeatedly said on horror after horror caused by Trump, “There is very little reason to believe that Kamala would have been any different”.
Yeah, we all understand that. It’s just that this is not a reasonable stance; it shows that one holding it is severely mentally deficient.
I agree. It pains me to see people dragged off the street and disappeared with no recourse, abuse, neglect, and dog knows what else. If it isn’t genocide it’s close enough to scare and disgust me.
If you’re saying you won’t vote for Biden or Trump, then yes, you’re saying they’re the same as far as you’re concerned. Even if you then add subtle nuances that explain the differing reasons why you’re treating them the same way.
And there’s another uncomfortable truth. You don’t get anything in a democracy by not voting. Politicians, who need to get elected, only pay attention to the people who vote.
When you say “I don’t vote and here’s the reasons why…” the politicians stopped listening when you got to the “and”. When you said you don’t vote, you told them they can ignore everything else you say.
People who won’t vote for the lesser evil always seem surprised when evil then gets bigger.
Appreciated. That said, there’s always the chance that I’ve had less impact in the world - and this thread - than I should because I’d rather leave all the crazies to argue among themselves than go out head cracking and drive them towards a better path.
