There are ways of framing issues where this statement is accurate—the numbers game—but I don’t think it’s helpful. We want to be the kind of society where people are free to be themselves, and a world in which trans people are threatened is not that. Everything we say we’re working toward should be inclusive of trans people, because whether you care about that specific issue or not, if you care about people, you want them to be safe and free. You don’t want the Christofascists defining gender norms for trans people, because that means they’re defining them for you, too, and ultimately that’s policing and restricting girls and women, and also limiting boys and men.
It’s not gonna matter what you are when the GOP destroys the country. That’s what I mean.
Shit, cats will probably be fine, the rest of all of us (straight, trans, bi, whatever), not so much.
Sometimes you don’t fight to win. Sometimes you fight to make the oppressor’s win as unbearable as humanly possible-A Pyrrhic victory.
One of the reasons I hate the sentiment of this thread so much is that one of my Senators – a Democrat, btw – has made it clear that he does not respect women at all.
In fact, he has argued that he is keeping the tent open to more people by using derogatory language about women. I guess he, like Little_Nemo, is counting on the fact that the other side is so bad that the Democrats can get away with treating their traditional supporters like shit.
I feel like I am being abused because of my sense of civic responsibility. And maybe I’m just to dumb to see it, but I don’t think that’s a great way to drum up election support.
ETA: Sorry, edited my post rather completely
I’ve come to realize that these people seem to genuinely think that playing nice gets them anywhere, that quieting down and being more polite is the way into the heart of hatred. They refuse to acknowledge how privileged it is to believe one can BECOME respectable without denying or denouncing their identity as a woman, as a BIPOC (do I add individual here? I hate this damn acronym because I suck at acronyms. BIPOC person/individual.*) as a queer or disabled individual, and as a human. It comes with the failure to realize that I am only to be respected by those people if I am less than human, and since I refuse to be less than human I am the one holding us back? I am the one creating the rift and the disrespect? It is the fault of the oppressed, never the oppressor.
As for the edit to your post, absolutely reprehensible behavior. We shouldn’t be pawns in their game, but that is how they treat us and it is unfair. If they do win, we will demand respect even harder than before, and they will comply or they will show their true colors as being bigoted all along. Do not give up hope, though!
They are either fully honest and somehow aren’t bigoted but will handle the bigots when they get there, in which case we’ll be okay, or they’re just as bad and that means they’ll never win the fight. Freedom will always win out over hateful rhetoric.
So let them win because we know the outcome will be horrific. I cannot get on board with that.
There are so many problems with that that I can’t even begin to list them.
That is not at all what I said or even implied.
OK - A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ ⓘ PIRR-ik) is a victory gained at such a cost to the victor that it is tantamount to defeat.[1]
But a Pyrrhic victory would hurt everyone in this case. If they are indeed the victors. That’s what I’m saying.
Sort of like the Terminator. - “It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!”
Unbearable to whom? Because, given how much his policies have hurt his voters, I’m not sure what they would find unbearable.
…watch this video.
If you don’t click, its a 2 minute and 5 second long video of Zohran Mamdani talking about Sylvia Rivera, her legacy, and what he pledges to do to protect trans people and their rights if he were to win the election. It’s all done to the tune of “It’s Okay to Cry”, by trans-artist Sophie, who passed away in 2021.
And that video is approximately 2 minutes and 4 seconds more than the Dems spent talking about trans people at the convention. Its about 2 minutes and 5 seconds longer than what Harris would have said (unpromoted) in defence of trans people on her campaign.
It’s like…it wasn’t very much. And the people of New York still have to hold Mamdani to account.
But its not like we are asking for much. Like firstly: we just want people to listen to trans people.
Is that too much to ask? For example in this thread Little_Nemo completely ignored the only trans-person in this thread right up to the point where they arrogantly proclaimed “I apparently care more about trans lives than you do.”
I mean, can you believe that shit?
And that’s exactly the “vibe” we get from the Dem establishment. The arrogant “we know better than you.”
Secondly, it’s about having an actionable plan. Mamdani draws lines in the sand. He explains policy. He says that he stands with trans people and this is how he will protect them.
All in less than two minutes!
Its like: I don’t understand what’s difficult here. Just listen to trans people. Have actionable policies to defend trans people and their rights. And publicly stand beside them, and protect them, and denounce blatant transphobia.
Recognize that transphobes are NOT your ally because if they are transphobic they are almost certainly a racist and a misogynist and a bigot and a horrible person and if they are saying they “aren’t going to vote for Trump” they are almost certainly lying to you.
Is this really too much to ask?
When you say you “don’t want to minimise it” what you really mean is “can you just shut up about it.” Which is exactly what the Dems did at the last election. And currently the Dems don’t have control over the House, the Senate, the Supremes or the Presidency.
I think that’s a failing strategy. I think its all the same thing. You can’t fight ICE if you can’t ALSO fight for trans people at the same time. You draw lines in the sand and you bring people together and you reject bigotry in all its forms. It isn’t a competition. You are all in this together.
I can’t guarantee that this would be a winning strategy. It might even be too late for that now. But when you’ve got two choices: either defend the marginalised or make alliances with the people who hate them, why would you choose the latter? You either go down fighting or as you experienced at the last election, you just go down.
I’d rather go down fighting. But I think if we fight, we have a better chance of winning.
…it’s really hard to know how to respond to this.
It’s just such an absurd, outlandish, disgusting thing to say. Yet I think you genuinely believe it. Which means on the “is he trolling or just delusional” scale you’ve tipped the balance over to delusional.
Those “terrible people” you want to work with are literally transphobes. As in, and I’ll quote your exact word: “trans-hating asshole” level-transphobes.
And by “working with them” what you actually mean is offering concessions. You will let them sign bathroom bills. Turn a blind eye while they ban trans women from womens sports. And you will probably even cheer a little when they ban trans-affirming care for children because it’s all about “protecting the kids.”
You would have to be a hateful bastard to want trans people to work with trans-hating assholes. Its like expecting Black people to work hand in hand with someone who just called them the n word. Why do you hate trans people so much?
I get it OK? But if we lose democracy, everyone looses. Straight, trans, whatever. Democracy is what we need to fight for.
I know the fight often starts from the bottom up. This is gonna have to be a top down fight. Impeachment. Imprisonment. Maybe, MAYBE, then the MAGA’s will get a clue.
I’m going to push back on this. I think I would now describe myself as having been transphobic until a few years ago. Not because I had a particular opinion about trans people, but because I didn’t: I had never really thought about it, though I had thought a lot about gender and sexuality.
It didn’t take much serious thinking to identify the bigotry inherited from mainstream culture and (I hope) eschew it, but I don’t think I was a horrible person, just an ignorant one. I have also had a degree of unlearning sexism, racism, and homophobia, because you soak these things up as a child and are not encouraged to examine them.
Now, there is a degree to which people choose ignorance, and refuse to be educated and / or put the burden on others to educate them despite their strong passive (or even active) resistance. I do think that, as humans, we all have the duty to become better people from where we started out, and we have to allow others the grace to grow and change. That’s not the same as tolerating intolerance or forgiving what has been done: it’s more a matter of not writing people off entirely without really good, specific reasons.
I think I understand the “compromise”.
If we make vomit-inducing concessions now, they will make vague promises for the future they have no intentions on keeping.
That about cover it?
Not for anybody who’s trans; or who loves someone who is.
I think you just told a batch of people who are on fire that they’re not burning. I very strongly advise against doing that.
…yes or no question: would you have described yourself as a “trans-hating asshole”? Because that’s exactly who I was talking about here. Thats different from who you were and who you are now.
I went through a similar journey. I got out of it because I followed the evidence and listened to what trans people had to say. I got out of it because my natural inclination is to side with the underdog: and while gender-criticals kept arguing they were the underdogs, that simply didn’t sit right with me.
It’s just that do you think that people who say things like “I apparently care more about trans lives than you do” are in any position to be the ones to be eductating people here?
We are talking trans-hating assholes. Bolding mine. They are assholes. They just also happen to hate trans people.
This is great @Dr.Drake . I never really thought about gender and sexuality either.
I’ve known a few gay people (I’m sort of a loner), my best friend has a good friend that is way out there (out of the closet wise). I just don’t care. Why should I? It doesn’t affect me at ALL.
Also my best friend owns and manages an apartemt building. The next door neighbor really really umm… set off the gaydar. Nope, he’s a drummer in a band and has a girlfriend living with him.
My best friend (a woman) and I (a man) both just kinda went huh. Ok.Whatever.
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say they are cis or trans, straight, gay or ace. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’
Or, to put it as a question,
If it has no effect on you why is it that you think you even get to have an opinion about it?
If we lose democracy, trans people will lose all rights (such as they have them). The GOP is hard at work destroying democracy.
If your engine blows up, a flat tire is not such a big deal.
I’m not trying to diminish the difficulties trans face. Just that the whole thing will tumble down without democracy.
None of the rest matters of the house burns down.
They can be as offended as they like but it doesn’t change that fact.
Like I was saying, it’s a matter of priorities and people concentrating on racism or trans rights now are missing the forest for the trees and overestimating the importance of those things to the well being of the nation as a whole *right now. *