I don’t think America ever really had democracy. But that’s a subject for another debate.
But you really have to do better than this. This is a slogan. What does it even mean? When peoples lives are literally on the line intangibles like “democracy” don’t mean a damn. Without an actionable plan, it’s just virtue signalling.
What exactly have you seen from the Dems in the last six years that leads you to believe that impeachment or imprisonment would even be on the cards?
If you are hinging your hopes on a “top-down fight” then all I can say is “don’t get your hopes up.”
The fightback in Minnesota is largely being fought by the grassroots. Its the grassroots that are organising. That are on the ground blowing horns and blowing whistles and risking their lives and literally dying to protect their fellow Americans. That isn’t to say “the top” aren’t doing anything. But they aren’t doing enough. And at the highest levels they simply don’t have a clue.
You draw lines in the sand. You present actionable plans. You fight at every level, from school boards to elections of the local sheriff to the city council.
This is a battle. You need to pick sides. Because MAGA isn’t going to go away. It will evolve. And adapt. We have “MAGA” here where I live, but it isn’t called MAGA. This is global. They are well funded. And have all of the advantages. We’ve got not much except each other, and we can’t leave anyone behind.
I was responding to what you said, not the person you said it about.
I wouldn’t describe myself as a trans-hating asshole, but I do remember being on a course with someone called Sean in my 20s. Sean was a bit odd, I thought, and partway through the course we discovered that he was trans when the school deadnamed him (though we didn’t have any of that vocabulary). In that limited context of a two-week residential course, I think I was an asshole to him, and I think he might have described me as, and think of me as, a trans-hating asshole. I really regret that now, of course, but I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by denying it.
Fair, but my point was that I think an actual trans person did have that experience of me, and that I was part of what made his journey difficult. Hopefully a small part, and it wasn’t because of hatred in my heart, but because I didn’t have the experience or awareness to see how I was interacting. Not that I was actively mean or anything, but still, I certainly wasn’t kind or inclusive to a person who really did need and deserve that.
…now imagine I was friends with the trans person, and they told me that you were a trans hating bigot.
Then tomorrow I came over to you and shook your hand. And started to be your friend. And we started to talk about how we could start working together in the future.
How do you think my trans friend would feel? Could you even ever trust me again?
Thats what this conversation is like. Trans people want to be heard. They don’t want their experiences dismissed. This shouldn’t be a matter of “priorities”. Because with a five-alarm-fire…EVERYTHING is important.
When people say things like “it’s a matter of priorities and people concentrating on racism or trans rights now are missing the forest for the trees” or “I don’t want to minimize it, but transphobia is one of our least problems” they are rejecting the idea we can do multiple things at once, or that some people can focus on one thing while others can focus on another.
But this is what is unsaid: what I think they really mean is that they thing any mention of trans rights is a losing proposition, so we shouldn’t say anything at all. And thats a strategy the Dems took into the last election and they lost the House, the Senate, the Executive and previously they had lost the Supremes for a generation.
I’m not arguing that suddenly loudly fighting for trans rights will win the next election. I’m arguing that it shouldn’t matter, and shouldn’t be a consideration. You fight for what’s right. You run a proactive campaign, not a defensive one. You take the fight to them. You give people something to vote for.
I didn’t say people were “offended”. I said people are on fire. As in, in danger of their lives.
Yes, we’re all in danger of our lives if the whole country burns. But you can’t put out a fire by pretending parts of it aren’t there; any more than you could put out an actual fire in a physical house by ignoring it if some of the firefighters are lighting children’s clothes on fire in the kitchen.
The whole thing will tumble down — whether or not it’s still called “democracy” — if we don’t all stand up for each other. That’s the only way there’s any hope.
This. The top level, even those with sense enough to try, neither will nor can do anything without the grassroots out in the streets blowing whistles.
Trump and the Republicans are an ongoing problem. Getting Trump and the Republicans out of political power is a primary goal.
Let’s say you encounter a group of people and they say the following:
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because of their political corruption.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because of the Epstein files.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because Trump is going to start a nuclear war with Mexico.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because I’m a lifelong Democrat.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because Trump’s a Gemini.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because of the ICE shootings in Minneapolis.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because he broke up the USFL.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because I think Trump’s tariffs are hurting American businesses.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because I think Trump has dementia.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because they’re taking away people’s civil rights.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because Trump tore down the White House.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because I don’t like Trump’s foreign policy.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because he didn’t lower egg prices like he promised.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because Trump is soft on upholding gun rights.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because I was rejected on The Apprentice.”
“I’m voting against Trump and the Republicans because of the January 6 insurrection.”
How should you respond to the people who made these statements?
Tell this person “Good, you’re doing the right thing. Be sure to show up on Election Day.”
Or should you respond like this:
“It’s good you’re voting against Trump. But you’re doing it for the wrong reason. The reason you should vote against Trump is because he’s conducting a genocide against Palestinians.”
“That’s happening in another country. I don’t really see that as a problem that involves Americans.”
“THAT’S BECAUSE YOU’RE A STUPID FUCKING IDIOT! YOU’RE WRONG, YOU PIECE OF SHIT! ASSHOLES LIKE YOU DON’T DESERVE TO VOTE AGAINST TRUMP!”
If you think a genocide is occurring and you think it’s important to stop it, then you should use the first response. You want people to move towards the goal that’s important, even if they’re moving that way for the wrong reasons.
If you decide it’s better to argue with these people, then you’re saying that you winning the argument is more important than the goal.
…why am I even talking to them? The scenario you posted was that they were a trans-hating asshole. If I knew that from the outset, then why would I even engage them in conversation?
They are already voting against Trump. I gain absolutely NOTHING reaching out to them.
This is a false dichotomy, though. It’s not like deciding to ignore the injustices inflicted on trans people, or other victims of oppression, will somehow make it easier to rescue democracy.
We’ve all got to make tactical decisions in real-time about how to best promote civic solidarity at any given moment, of course, and sometimes those decisions mean that we aren’t being equally vocal about all our principled positions at all times.
If an ex-MAGA person decides they can no longer support Republicans because, for example, Republicans are fucking over poor people’s access to healthcare, I’m going to agree with them on that particular issue, rather than immediately pivot to interrogating them about whether they’re properly supportive of feminism or trans rights.
Likewise, if an immigrant-hating trans person gets disenchanted with MAGA because of its transphobic policies, I’m going to agree with them on that particular issue, rather than start arguing with them about the need to oppose ICE atrocities.
But that doesn’t mean that I need to have some kind of ranked list of political principles in order of priority. It’s pointless as well as heartless to decide, for example, that I’m just going to personally stop opposing attacks on trans rights or racial minority rights or gay rights or women’s rights until we’ve re-established electoral integrity and other safeguards of democracy. Or that I’m going to start scolding fellow anti-Trumpists for continuing to advocate for those causes.
That literally accomplishes nothing except to gratuitously denigrate and devalue allies.
You’re just an utter fucking hypocrite. YOU are the one who created a pit threat to tell us all we’re horrible. YOU are the one obsessed with winning. You are the only one in the thread who didn’t at least try to come to some sort of compromise.
You are the one insisting that everyone else change tactics. That’s literally what your post is about. Yet somehow we’re the bad guys, when you were the one who attacked US.
I’ve gone out of my way to be nice to you, and you ignore me. Why would anyone else care to be nice when it’s clear you’re only here for the fight?
I used to like you. I don’t anymore. Not because of your position. But because you only care about being right. This thread shouldn’t exist, but it definitely shouldn’t continue.
A fucking trans person was hurt and called you out. AND YOU DIDN’T FUCKING CARE. You don’t care about anything but “winning.”
Fucking look in a mirror and stop projecting this shit on us.
Fortunately, we went through that phase here in South Africa. Our only MAGA style movement is comatose, after their brief star shone during apartheid. And their “star” was murdered by a man he had raped, which seems fitting (Eugene Terre’blanche)
We have a very left-wing government and an extremely left wing opposition.
Yes, I am obsessed with winning. Trump and the Republicans are doing terrible things. I want to stop them. It’s a really important goal and I want to win it. I want to stop them, not just settle for a “moral victory”.
You’re right that I insist people change their tactics. Defeating Trump and the Republicans is the main goal. Winning arguments is secondary to that. So when you encounter somebody who is planning on voting against the Republicans, don’t start an argument with them over what their reasons are.
Here’s what you got wrong.
I’m not a hypocrite. I’ve been very open about what I believe.
I’m not telling you you’re horrible. I’m telling you this is an important struggle with lives at stake. So we’ve got to fight in the most effective way we can. And that means we need to reach out to people - even people who might disagree with us on important issues. Because the most important issue is defeating Trump and the Republicans.
You’re wrong about me not being willing to compromise. I haven’t said anybody has to agree with my opinions on these issues. I’ve said we can have different opinions - as long as we agree on the central issue of defeating Trump and the Republicans.
You are creating a false dichotomy. I spent two weeks canvassing for Harris in two states. (Wisconsin and Arizona) I spoke with literally hundreds of people. I never had to make that choice.
If someone said, “I’m going to vote for Harris because of inflation”, I’d say, “great, when do you plan to vote? Will you vote in person or by mail? Where are you planning to vote?..”
If one of those people had said something nasty and transphobic, i would have gently engaged them, probably with an appropriate anecdote about a sympathetic trans friend. But you know what, that simply never came up.
I also spoke with some trump supporters. Not one said they were voting for Trump because of his trans policy. (Many said they were voting for Trump because of his racism policy. A few were voting for Trump because they were totally disconnected from reality, like the guy who was mad at Harris because she’d raised his local property taxes. There were other reasons, too.)
Forests are made of trees. If you ignore all the little issues, the big issue will be lost as those bits and pieces are destroyed. Something the Right knows perfectly well, and has always been fond of using “divide and conquer” & “salami slicing” to destroy its opponents piecemeal. You won’t be winning by sacrificing most of your supporters without a fight.
And besides that, the Democrats/liberals have a reputation for throwing supposed allies under the bus. It’s expected. Telling trans people, homosexuals, non-white people, women, etc (which I’ll point out taken together are most people) that they have to be sacrificed for the Good of the Nation will just be regarded as another stab in the back. They aren’t going to fight for the right to be carted off to concentration camps while the liberals cry crocodile tears over their martyrdom.
Which begs a question for a different thread, but what exactly is missing/awry in these people’s lives that they feel like this hard-right, reactionary ideology works for them?
And none of the usual glib, simple answers about how they’re hateful, racist, stupid, whatever. I have a feeling that those are symptoms or consequences, not the root causes of this movement. Like you say, it’s a global phenomenon, and it’s one that apparently rears up every so often (we last saw this in the 1920s and 1930s). The question is why, and what makes this sort of thinking so attractive to a certain demographic?
But nobody here is disagreeing with that real-time strategy. In fact, several of us have independently described doing exactly that sort of thing, and nobody’s given us any shit for it.
This whole thousand-plus-post thread is something you started to argue with a straw man, and it’s accomplishing nothing except exacerbating the divisiveness you claim to be deploring.
Except that any time you disagree with another poster’s opinion, you frame it as allegedly undermining the cause of defeating Trump and the Republicans, so you can berate that poster about it and feel smug some more.
Dude, if you really want to diminish counterproductive divisiveness, then stop gratuitously picking fights with people you mostly agree with. This whole thread is Exhibit A about that stupidly combative behavior of yours.