I pit over-the-top Anti-Trump hysteria

[Banquet_Bear]

@Little_Nemo

The thing is, it does work.

…establishment Dems managed to lose the Supreme Court for a lifetime. In the most consequential election of our lifetime, the establishment Dems managed to lose the House, the Senate and the Executive.

It “works” until it doesn’t.

You are failing to convince me that following the same loser strategy over and over again is the key to combating fascism. Because these losers you support aren’t prepared to do what it takes to actually deal with fascism.

For example:

@Little_Nemo

Do you want to live in a country where ICE agents are shooting people in the streets or a country where ICE agents aren’t shooting people in the streets? Do you want to live in a country where Hispanics are being rounded up and sent to third world countries or a country where Hispanics are not being rounded up? Do you want to live in a country where the military is shooting people in the water or do you want to live in a country where the military doesn’t commit murder? Do you want to live in a country where the President is above the law or do you want to live in a country where the President has to obey the law? And do you want to live in a country where one party controls the elections or do you want to live in a country which allows genuine elections?

If ICE continues to exist: then ICE agents will continue to shoot people in the street whether its MAGA in charge or establishment Dems. Hispanics will continue to be rounded up by the establishment Dems, it’s just we won’t make as much of a fuss about it. Biden and the establishment Dems funded and supported the genocide in Gaza where the IDF routinely policed bans on fishing in Gaza by shooting fishermen in the water.

The United States of America doesn’t really have “genuine” elections. The electoral college is just the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of. Elections often hinge on a statistical handful of votes in swing states.

What you really need to be asking is what is the better strategy for ICE: giving them body-cameras and new rules to follow…or just abolishing them alltogether. And if you think its the former, then tell us why. Because thats the real choice that is on the table right now. Who is better equiped to deal with the fascists.

@Little_Nemo

But that choice isn’t on the menu right now.

It is if you get on board. And instead of shaking hands with trans-hating arseholes, you convince fellow liberals to join the progressive train. If you had told me 20 years ago that fascism was coming to America and its herald would be Donald Fucking Trump, I would have said you were stark-raving-bonkers. And yet, here we are. The President of the United States of America is also the stupidest person on the planet. Change is possible. MAGA has proven that.

The establishment Democrats are not coming to save you. They don’t recognize the threat. Many of their policies and positions are in alignment with MAGA…just a tad softer.

The reason why people support progressives isn’t because they support things like universal healthcare. It’s because, unlike the centreists, they have a moral backbone. Take any position, from trans-rights to unrestrained capitalism to immigration to Gaza, the lines are absolutely clear. They hold these positions not because their donors like it or because they think it will get them votes…but because they think this is morally right.

I personally think its too late.That’s not “doomerism.” I don’t live in America. The stakes are different for me. I look at America the same way Americans look at other countries and make profound judgements. This is less a “facsist takeover” and more of a criminal enterprise one that enables the facists because it helps the criminals make more money.

There are things that started under Biden and continued under Trump that will not be reversed. Did you know that currently 11 judges and lawyers in the International Criminal Court are being sanctioned by the United States of America because they issued arrest warrants for arrest warrants targeting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Former Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant? Those sanctions mean they are banned from US territories. Can’t use most credit cards. Can’t open a bank account. Can’t use services like UPS or anything where a US intermediatary could be involved. It isn’t just the ICC. They are deliberately targeting individuals worldwide who specifically oppose US policy and the policy of their allies.

The United States can just kill dozens of security personnel and soldiers and abduct a foreign head of state with impunity. Hospitals are now legitimate targets. UN compounds are no longer off-limits. Indiscriminate pager bombs are not terrorism.

The US and its allies are rewriting the playbook. The “Trump Board of Peace”? That isn’t just about Gaza. This is the model for the replacement of the United Nations.

Its amusing that there are people like Little_Nemo who are so insulated that they think the people who helped usher all of these things in are going to be the ones that save you. This isn’t an argument that the Dems and MAGA are equivalent. MAGA are orders of magnitude worse. But the establishment Dems aren’t going to restore funding to USAID. They aren’t going to bring the Federal government back to where it was. They aren’t going to abolish ICE. They aren’t going to protect the Palestinians. They are going to capitulate on trans sports and probably bathrooms and gender-affirming care for kids and will stop fighting for the right to abortion nationwide. They aren’t going to fight for the United Nations and international law. The bar has been reset. This is what the donors and the oligarchs want. Establishment dems won’t want to rock the boat.

[Little_Nemo]

@Smapti

Tell it to Mayor Cuomo.

When Zohran Mamdani gets elected President, I’ll concede the point.

[Smapti]

Unfortunately he’s not eligible.

[Little_Nemo]

Okay, when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez gets elected President, I’ll concede the point.

[Sylvanz]

Huh, AOC being a progressive is the one factor on her side. However, she is also a woman of color and we’ve seen how that worked out for the most middle of the road Overton window right candidate. This backwards country would rather have trump shit all over us than elect a woman of color regardless of her politics.

[Disinfectus]

@Little_Nemo

What are you looking for? An excuse to quit? You’re not getting it from me.

You are STILL confusing pessimism with realism. And thus far, out of 1,500 posts on a board filled with relatively intelligent people, you’ve managed to get one person to sort of agree with you. Most people might consider taking some time for self-reflection, but you barrel forth, not once actually listening and trying to understand what people are trying to tell you. Instead, you spend your time reading things into people’s posts that they never actually stated, as some sort of defense mechanism. It’s not a good look, but you do you.

[wolfpup]

@Tamerlane

Or to put it more it more plainly, I really don’t think most Americans do support progressive policies when it gets down to brass tax.

I don’t know if that was deliberate, but it was a very appropriate homophone. Americans for the most part are fine with progressivism and (except for the racists) even socialism, as long as it doesn’t have the slightest impact on their comfortable middle- or upper-class lifestyles. Yes, by all means look after the poor and provide a social safety net and essential health care, just as long as you don’t make me pay for it. In fact you need to cut my taxes which are already too high. That’s the Republican mantra, with the added wisdom that Blacks are poor because they’re lazy and don’t want to work.

ETA: There’s an interesting cultural difference I’ve noticed between Canada and the US, very broadly speaking. In Canada, if a new tax or a tax increase is proposed, the public stance is generally to ask, “what is it for? Is it worth it?”. In the US, broadly speaking, the public stance is just “NO!!”. And then everyone wonders why the Gini index is so high and widening even further, and why public infrastructure is crumbling.

[MrDibble]

@Little_Nemo

How do you think primaries work? Their results are based on people voting. In this case, registered Democrats.

Ah, yes, it’s all a level playing field laid out before the voters and the DNC’s and state committees’ funding and support play absolutely no role in the primaries /s

[Little_Nemo]

@Disinfectus

You are STILL confusing pessimism with realism. And thus far, out of 1,500 posts on a board filled with relatively intelligent people, you’ve managed to get one person to sort of agree with you. Most people might consider taking some time for self-reflection, but you barrel forth, not once actually listening and trying to understand what people are trying to tell you. Instead, you spend your time reading things into people’s posts that they never actually stated, as some sort of defense mechanism. It’s not a good look, but you do you.

Yes or no question.

Are you planning on voting for Democratic candidates in the November election?

You can offer all of the explanations you want afterwards but answer that simple question first.

[Little_Nemo]

@MrDibble

Ah, yes, it’s all a level playing field laid out before the voters and the DNC’s and state committees’ funding and support play absolutely no role in the primaries /s

Does this involve mind control?

Yes, of course, some candidates receive more donations than others. And some candidates run more ads than others.

But if the voters really wanted progressive candidates to get elected, they would ignore all that and vote for progressive candidates.

Somebody who lets themselves be swayed to vote for a moderate candidate because they saw a tv ad isn’t as progressive as you’d like to imagine.

[DavidNRockies]

At this point, (s)he calls to mind for me nothing more starkly than an early AI program that the developers are racking their brains trying to fix.

And that buggy, hot AI mess was programmed to default to intellectual dishonesty. That’s the one aspect of it that’s working as envisioned.

[Sylvanz]

NIMBY is alive and well. For instance two women I work with were vocally against universal health care because they might have to wait for some test or other. Trying to explain to them that the wait is only for those who are not going to die waiting fell on deaf ears. They should not have to wait to get a CT scan for a hang nail. They should get it right now screw those people with tumors etc. Seriously, the extra wasn’t said, but that is the impression I got from them. The one thinks she should be able to blab her trumpist nonsense all over the work place. Pretty inappropriate.

[MrDibble]

@Little_Nemo

Does this involve mind control?

Is that a serious question?

@Little_Nemo

Yes, of course, some candidates receive more donations than others. And some candidates run more ads than others.

The fact that this is an “of course” is everything that’s wrong with Western democracy, especially American-style. It should not be an “of course” at all.

@Little_Nemo

But if the voters really wanted progressive candidates to get elected, they would ignore all that and vote for progressive candidates.

This has an element of victim-blaming.

People are only going to be able to decide on the things they’re exposed to.

If they’re purposefully not exposed to progressive candidates because some exposure takes money and other exposure takes being allowed into the debates in the first place, and the progressive candidates are purposefully starved of that money and the debates are structured so progressive candidates don’t qualify, how will the voters even know that the progressive candidates even exist?

And that’s leaving aside when the party political machine actively spreads lies about the unfavoured progressive candidates on their own damn side.

@Little_Nemo

Somebody who lets themselves be swayed to vote for a moderate candidate because they saw a tv ad isn’t as progressive as you’d like to imagine.

They can be as progressive as they like, but if their party doesn’t platform anyone progressive, what choice do they have in a two-party system with party-overseen primaries?

You say “swayed”, I say “forced”.

[Disinfectus]

@Little_Nemo

Yes or no question.

Are you planning on voting for Democratic candidates in the November election?

Of course the answer is yes. I’m surprised you hadn’t figured that out on your own. I’m also baffled as to the relevance of that question to my post.

[Little_Nemo]

@DavidNRockies

At this point, (s)he calls to mind for me nothing more starkly than an early AI program that the developers are racking their brains trying to fix.

And that buggy, hot AI mess was programmed to default to intellectual dishonesty. That’s the one aspect of it that’s working as envisioned.

Interesting fact. Announcing that people you don’t like aren’t human is widely recognized as one of the steps towards genocide. Good to see we’re keeping these posts on topic.

[Little_Nemo]

@Disinfectus

@Little_Nemo

Yes or no question.

Are you planning on voting for Democratic candidates in the November election?

Of course the answer is yes. I’m surprised you hadn’t figured that out on your own. I’m also baffled as to the relevance of that question to my post.

Glad to hear it. It’s good to see we can agree on this even if we don’t agree on other political issues.

[Little_Nemo]

@MrDibble

They can be as progressive as they like, but if their party doesn’t platform anyone progressive, what choice do they have in a two-party system with party-overseen primaries?

You say “swayed”, I say “forced”.

I’m going to stick with “swayed”.

The parties have influence but they don’t control who runs for office.

Bernie Sanders wasn’t banned from running for President (nor has he been banned from running for Congress). He announced his candidacy in 2015 just like Hillary Clinton and Lincoln Chaffee and Lawrence Lessig and Martin O’Malley and Jim Webb did. The Democratic Party didn’t have a veto.

If there had been widespread support among the voters for Sanders’ progressive platform, he would have gotten the votes and the Democratic Party would have fallen in line behind him.

[DavidNRockies]

Don’t you worry. That didn’t sound melodramatic, hyperbolic, irrational, or hysterical at all.

[Little_Nemo]

I don’t think there is a standard response to somebody accusing you of not being human.

[crowmanyclouds]

Which really didn’t happen.