Um, yes, actually - in Washington DC, Fierra was accosted by a waiter at a restaurant when she picked up the bill. We had crappy service all night long, and were basically ignored, and she gave about a 5% tip. On the way out, the waiter came and stopped her and talked to her. Then she signed something else. When she joined up with me, she didn’t want to talk about it. Then later, she revealed that the waiter told her that her tip was too low, and she needed to tip him more. So she did.
That shit of a server that decided to ignore us most of the night, and be rude to us when he wasn’t ignoring us, dared to take my girl aside, taking her by the fucking arm, to tell her she hadn’t tipped enough.
I had to be restrained by her from going in and taking him by the arm and having a Talk. Instead, I phoned up and spoke with the manager, and the manager’s manager. I spoke very loudly, forcefully, and with much emphasis. I think most people can imagine me angry. We got the entire $60 meal for free, and verifed such when the credit card bill came.
The other time, I was with a group for work - some of you know the situation. You have 8 people or more, so there’s a mandatory gratuity of 25% or something on the bill (even though they only give you a single server for 20 guests, but hey, that’s fair, right? :rolleyes: ) And so when we went up to pay the bill, the cashier said:
“You forgot to put the tip.”
And I said
“Excuse me? There’s a mandatory 25% gratuity. That’s the tip.”
And i admit to being part of the problem. You’d have to give me pretty fucking awful service to get a tip of less than 18-22%. I realise that the system might work better if the tip i gave did, in fact, reflect the service, but i’m a bit of a soft touch. I prefer not to stiff someone just because he or she might be having a bad day.
You must not read many of your own posts then. I made a valid point, other then the relative severity of abusing women versus abusing waiters, what’s the difference? Care to adress that, or will you stick to invective?
Yi-pi-ki-yi-ya for Oz. When waiters here start being paid $25/hour and the food prices stay the same, I’ll be as pleased as punch not to tip.
I still don’t get your point. Different countries, different cultures, different customs. So what? What does that have to do with the country, culture and customs in the U.S. or Canada? Not a thing. Like I said earlier, when waiters here start being paid $25/hour and the food prices stay the same, then I will concede the point. Happily. Joyfully. In 72 point type. Until then you’re just pie in the skying as usual.
Yes, yes I am.
Again, what’s your point? Your anecdotal experience somehow trumps my anecdotal experience? Nice try, but no dice.
That shit just burns me up. When large groups are paying, they often forget (or don’t even realize) that a gratuity has already been added by the restaurant.
If the establishment adds a tip, this should be clearly marked on the check with a big red circle so that people don’t forget and add a second tip. If people want to tip more than the specified amount, that’s fine, but they shouldn’t be tricked into doing so.
What? Where did you read that? Alice, remember Alice? This is a post about Alice. Alice with a few words to Mika on the side said that if you can’t afford a meal plus the tip maybe you should find a resturant where you can afford everything. Nothing about 20% being cheap.
Leave what you want. Who cares what the waiter thinks as long as the waiter gives you good service (tee hee).
Oooh, I got another one. One time me and 4 people went out to lunch at a place near work that had the “more than 6 people is X% gratuity” notice up. While there, we saw another group of co-workers from another division (since the restaurant was 2 blocks away from our building, it was frequented by a lot of people from my company). So at bill time, we see the “X% gratuity” on our bill.
“What is this?” I ask. “There’s only 5 of us.”
“It’s a mandatory gratuity since there were 9 of you. So-rry, nothing I can do about it.” the waitress says.
“You’re not listening - there were only 5 of us.” I say, again.
“That other table (referring to the co-workers already seated who we said “hi” to) was with you.” she replies.
“No, they weren’t, they were already here when we got here, and we didn’t sit with them.” I’m getting angry, and my idiot co-workers have decided to start meekly paying the mandatory gratuity just so they can go.
“You sure acted like you knew them.” was her nonsensical response.
So, long story short, the manager gets called, the manager is all about the “listening to the customer”, but he “can’t do anything” because “you had more than 6 people”. I keep arguing, and he says “OK, OK, YOU don’t have to pay the gratuity if YOU don’t think our servers deserve it.” and cancels it off the bill. Meanwhile, my co-workers have all paid the mandatory gratuity, even though several of them also left significant cash tips on the table.
So the server gets nothing, my lunch is more stressful than need be, the manager is upset, and the co-workers feel used. Everyone loses!
[sub]And I’ll bet for every “asshole customer” story someone can dig up, I can dig up an “asshole/incompetent server/manager/cook” one. I take a lot of business trips and entertain at a lot of places…[/sub]
So, your point is that if you are opposed, in principle, to a cultural practice, then you shouldn’t follow that practice, right? After all, it is, as you said, a matter of “having the courage of your convictions.”
Why, then, did you tell the OP to stay home? After all, by your logic, if the OP has the courage of his/her convictions, s/he should just go to restaurants, pay for the food, and refuse to tip. Would be be OK with that? If not, why not?
Avoiding your own point, yet again. You specifically made the argument that switching from tips to a flat wage would “cause the quality of the service to go way down.” Whether you’d be pleased not to tip is irrelevant to this issue. The question is, does the paying of a wage rather than tips in places like Australia lead to a lower quality of service?
Same point as before. Sure, different countries have different cultures. In some countries, the culture accepts low wages and the practice of tipping; in others, the culture calls for higher wages and limited or no tipping. If your earlier assertion about quality of service were correct, service would, overall, be better in the former countries than the latter. I’m telling you that, based on ten years’ experience, serving in quite a few places and eating in literally hundreds, it’s not.
Well, in this case it does, because my experience actually encompasses societies that have the diversity of cultural practices surrounding restaurant dining that directly relate to the point you were trying (however poorly) to make.
I make no claim that my experience is exhaustive, but it is quite extensive. Your experience—at least as you’ve described it in this thread—amounts to nothing but an assertion about the level of service and tips at some different types of chain restaurants, and an anecdote about one lazy employee.
Furthermore, your assertion about the different restaurant chains needs some backing up. You say:
Are lower (percentage) tips really the norm in those first two places? And if they are, is it directly related to the level of service that people receive? Or is it, as The Asbestos Mango suggests, more a case of the relative wealth and/or generosity of the people who eat there?
Of the four chains you mentioned, the only one i’ve eaten in was a Denny’s. Twice. Because there was absolutely nowhere else to go. And on both occasions i tipped my usual percentage. I certainly didn’t reduce the amount because it was “just” a Denny’s. Do you?
I don’t understand this as well. I’ll hazard that I’ve eaten at some places that are hideously expensive to most budgets (on the company entertainment dollar, mind you) and my general, anecdotal experience is that the waiter for a $300 a person meal is not really enhancing my dining experience any more than the waiter at Perkins.
As I’ve posted in the past - I give 0% tips for bad service, and I’ve given tips of 100% for great service. Hell, I have no incentive not to tip large when I’m using an expense account that is typically far more than I actually need. I’ve left $40 for a $22 bill at a diner when the hostess sat and talked to me like a human being. And I’ve stiffed a waiter on a $100 bill when he treated me like scum of the earth. Given an average meal, my default tip is about 20%. This practice typically offends someone on here, who no doubt will pop up again to tell me how wrong I am.
Yes, and what I should have added was that I can also come up with a plethora of stellar, exceptional, kind, and enthusiastic servers that made my time in their place an absolute joy, too. It’s just those stories rarely get told in the BBQ Pit.
Why should I tip someone like her 20% when she is just going to consider it a poor tip anyway?
How am I supposed to know how much to tip, when any given waiter has a different idea of what a good tip is? The tipping system doesn’t work when some people are happy to get 20% and some are pissed off.
I believe that stiffing a bad server on the tip does nothing at all. People’s default reaction to this sort of thing is not to examine their own behavior, but to dismiss the person who did not tip as an asshole.
No one ever thinks they’re the one who’s in the wrong.
You are the one who defined tipping as a cultural practice, not me, but to answer your specific question (something you ought to try once in a while), the best thing for your hypothetical person to do would be to not dine out, that way he wouldn’t feel obligated to practice a custom he despises. Baring that, he should absolutely refuse to tip. I’d still think he was a cheap bastard, but at least he’d be a cheap bastard with the courage to take an unpopular stance because he believes in it.
Again you are, quite deliberately, I suspect, missing the point. The point is not weather the service in Australia, or France, or Afghanistan or on the moon or anywhere else you care to name that pays servers a higher salary in lieu of tips is on par with the service in America. The point is that if you were to institute that system here in America, the quality of service would go down drastically. There is another poster-Arwin, maybe?- who always comes into gun control threads and argues how wonderful things are in the Netherlands with strict gun control and how happy everyone is over there with that situation. What he never seems to realize is that just because gun control works wonderfully over there does not mean it’s even realistic over here. Different cultures, different situations. Same thing with tips. You got paid $25 an hour and no tips as a waiter in Australia and it worked great for you. That doesn’t meant it would work great here (and by the way, could you please tell me how a system paying servers $25/hour could be instituted here without raising the cost of meals by an enormous amount? I’d be curious how you plan to pull this miracle off)
I have no doubt that you’ve eaten in more different countries than I have. I have only dined out on 2 continents in perhaps a half dozen different countries. So what? Again, it’s irrelevant to the actual point, that point being how a non-tips approach would work in America.
I tip the same way at Dennys and at Ruth’s Chris myself. That doesn’t change the fact that many people don’t, and that (in general-I’ve gotten excellent service at a Dennys before) the level of service is much better at the later than at the former. Why do you think that is? Could it be that talent goes where the money is? You think? Maybe? And maybe paying everyone the same with no incentive to excel might change this? Did you take any basic economics classes at all in school?
I was refering to post number 4. Perhaps we are interpreting it differently. I’m ready, “The typical tip is 20%. If you can’t afford that maybe you shouldn’t eat there.” You seem to be reading, “The typical tip is 20%. That’s just the bare minium. In fact that’s just plain cheap and if you’re too poor to pay at least 20% at a nice resturant maybe you should go to the Chuck E Cheese down the street.” I’d like to think that alice’s thoughts are more in line with my interpretation, but then again I’m just a sucker. Did I ever tell you about the time I took shovels and rakes and implements of destruction to move half a ton of garbage from Alice’s house on Thanksgiving…
So… you want to judge somebody on their thoughts rather than their actions. You have a bright future in politics, friend.
So, fundamentally, your position is nothing more than an assertion for which you have no evidence. It’s nothing but rampant speculation on your part.
When did i suggest paying everyone the same? Please point out where i made this recommendation. I am, in fact, well aware of the economic principles you allude to, but i have to ask in return whether you took any classes in basic logic. Because the removal of tipping is not the same as paying everyone the same wage. Nowhere did i say that all waiters in a non-tip system should receive the same wage, despite your typically ill-considered inference.
Well if one person, just one person does it, the waiter might just think he’s an asshole and dismiss it. If two people, to people do it, the waiter might think they’re just douchebags and dismiss them. But if three people, can you imagine? Three people come in, stiff the waiter, and walk out. He might think its’ an organization. And if fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day, come in, stiff the waiter, and walk out he might think its’ a movement.
Seriously, if everybody stiffs bad waiters it’ll put a dent in their pocketbooks and in theory either drive them out of the business or make them re-assess the way they work.
I think I’ve over-used the Alice’s Resturant thing in this thread.
I go to the same places a lot ( actual location on the ground ) and I pay attention. If there are good and bad staff, I make sure I get the good staff and tip acordingly.
I do think that many people tip the same without regard to anything besides the extremes.
I cut slack for busy. I do not cut slack for stupid, tude, or lazyness.
I do have problems with what to do in some cases. Steak house; I stand in a line. I get a drink and opt for the mega bar. I get my own glass from the rack, fix my own drink, after I have gotten my own tray ( wet ) and (not so clean utensils ) and I pay for my meal. I find my own seat and go get my own food.
A smilling face comes by and says, “Hi, I Suzzie Q and I’m your server.” Drops a basket with 2 rolls in it and I never see her again. I don’t need to see her again.n I don’t need anything.
Meal + drink X 2 = $20. X .20 = $4.
I don’t think she deserves $4.
She is wait staff.
She is working in the ‘tip’ system.
Or I add a steak to my order and a totally different person than ‘Suzzie Q’ brings our order when it is done and the meal is more like $35. Why is she to get $7? I pay up but I get pissed.
It keeps the waitstaff from fistfighting over tables in front of the customers. Table territory is sacred ground in restraurants. To break the order is asking for no end of unrest, and no manager is going to put up with the fights caused by table stealing.
This was confusing to me. You say you have not been chastised, and say you got the evil eye. Who was it that lectured you?
I doubt there are many service folks that would prefer your suggestion. A few I’m sure. The good ones make decent money and it’s nice haveing cash to take home after work. You just deal with the ups and downs. Kinda like real life.
Aren’t there many counrtries where there is no tipping? Canada right?
I tend to be a generous tipper after a lifetime of working around people who depend on tips. Poor service gets the bare minimum. If I get really awful service then not only will I not tip but I’ll inform the management of my experience. If it was my resturant I’d want to be told. If the service was good and the food was not I don’t blame my server, or if I can see that the person has too many tables and is doing their best.
