I pit the cops who openly applauded police abuse today

The BBQ Pit
441

I don’t particularly like that it’s a necessary consequence of a fair law, but obviously I’m willing to accept it. You obviously shouldn’t be convicted if the state can’t prove your guilt.

I’m not sure why you are rolling your eyes at that, it’s a factual statement.

So despite me being right, you are going to attack me because you don’t like what I said? Someone found not guilty because of nullification is just as innocent as anyone else.

The juries, by definition, were right. They are the ones, ultimately, who decide what happened.

You don’t have more evidence, I doubt you’ve spent more time looking at it than the juries, and a jury is necessarily looking at a case in hindsight, someone who was there wouldn’t be allowed to serve.

As for the lobe holdout , it is my opinion (which in this case I know is unpopular) that even one person disagreeing demonstrates reasonable doubt of guilt, and were I fellow juror I’d feel compelled to side with him even if I didn’t see the reason for doubt myself. To do otherwise defeats the object of having a jury, in my opinion.

Well if we’re discussing morality, you *definitely *don’t have a right to shoot at those who are risking their lives to protect you.

I doubt there was any intent to kill a cop, so I would consequently doubt it was murder. If that’s the only thing he was charged with, and if your description if events and that in your link are accurate, I would expect him to be found not guilty. Indeed, if there was actually no way he could tell they were cops, such as if they were out of uniform and didn’t announce themselves, he might even have a claim that he was unfairly prosecuted.

But, if the cops were acting on a warrant (or what they reasonably believed to be one), he is likely guilty of some crime, possibly manslaughter.

442

The correct action is not to shoot a copy that’s doing his job. They, unlike other people, sometimes have a right to break your door down, and even if they’ve made a mistake you should challenge that in court later, not shoot them.

As I’ve said in several posts. You constantly attempting to rephrase the question isn’t going to magically get a different answer.

443

Can you please link to the video that convinced you Rice was attempting to reach for the toy gun?
Can you please estimate how much time that child had to react to whatever was yelled at him before he was shot down?

444

That’s exactly backwards from what I said.

Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job. Even if their job involves breaking down your door and searching your property, or arresting you and your family. They’re allowed to do thst.

Anyone who isn’t a cop? Shoot them if you feel the need.

And yeah, if you start threatening cops they can shoot you, as *you are the one doing the threatening, not them. *

445

It’s already been linked, and timed. Try reading the whole thread.

446

This doesn’t resolve the dilemma. Again, this is the situation: late at night, someone breaks into my house, but it’s too dark to identify them as anything more than a shape with a gun. I have entirely reasonable fear that they are an imminent threat even though I don’t know who they are. Can I shoot them?

If you can’t provide a yes or no answer, then your philosophy is worthless in real world situations.

447

You know, we put up with this “obviously we’re all talking about the law what could anyone else be talking about BEEP BOOP I AM A LAWYER ROBOT” bullshit from Bricker because he’s actually a lawyer and it’s nice to have someone on hand who can answer these kinds of questions. I’m not sure why we put up with it from Steophan.

448

You may (not must) shoot someone who is a threat. You may not shoot a cop doing their job. Only one is an obligation.

You can of course shoot anyone in your house, but if you don’t identify them you may well suffer legal or other consequences. It doesn’t just have to be the cops, you don’t get to shoot other people who live there either, even if they come in loudly at night.

I’m sceptical how likely it is that you could see well enough to identify someone as being armed and presenting an imminent threat, but not well enough to see the rather distinctive uniform that the police wear. It could happen very occasionally, in which case it would probably go to a jury to decide.

I’ll put the basic answer again, as clearly as ever. Don’t shoot cops who are doing their job.

449
  1. There was a link to the shooting-was that the specific video that convinced you that he was going for his toy gun?
  2. I’m not finding this time reaction time estimate you claim is here. Can you please link to it, then tell us whether you agree with it?

Or in other words, would it kill you to answer the actual questions that are being asked, just this once?

450

You (in the generic sense) put up with it because I’m allowed to post it here and you choose to keep reading it.

If you want to have a debate about what the law should be, or how cops behaviour should be regulated, do so. But that’s not what you’ve been doing, you’ve been saying that certain food should have been convicted despite the law saying otherwise. You can’t claim that’s not a legal issue.

451

I don’t think your philosophy is very clear, and I don’t think you’re as committed to self-defense in principle as you’ve said in the past. If self-defense truly was the highest priority, then you’d have more sympathy for the homeowner with entirely reasonable fear for their life than a dumbass cop who broke down the wrong door and put himself and others at unnecessary risk becuase of his own stupidity.

452

It’s the middle of the night, they break into your house wearing dark uniforms and yelling (often contradictory) instructions and threats, and the only lights in the room are being shined in your face. You aren’t even half-awake yet, and you think it is possible to identify uniforms?

453

What other group of uniformed people could it be? I suppose Canada might have invaded, but they’d be too polite to break the door down…

454

IT DOESN’T MATTER if it’s the wrong door, you still don’t get to shoot the cops, you cooperate with them.

The police are not the threat you are entitled to defend yourself against, they are the people putting their lives on the line to protect you. Learn what their uniforms look like and don’t shoot them.

I’m really not sure how “don’t shoot cops who are doing their jobs” is controversial.

455

Self defense, fear for his life, blah blah blah. This sort of thing happens FAR too often. All too often these cops are “repeaters” with a documented history. So why do they get to do it again and again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD62ua2vdBc
456

Listen, fuckwad. On the one hand, The cops do not yet know they are at the wrong apartment/house and are primed to expect any reaction at all to be an attempt to grab weapons.
On the other hand, residents that have yet to wake up are extremely started by doors being broke down, people threatening them and lights being shined in their faces, and you think panic and irrational responses are wholly the responsibility of the residents?

457

Or, you know, it could be a bunch of home invaders.

Who may or may not be wearing police uniforms. But by the time you knew what they were wearing, you would be dead.

ESPECIALLY if they’re cops, because home invaders have an actual disincentive to be randomly murdery…they get caught, they go to jail.

A cop gets caught murdering a person, fucksticks who think they’re more intelligent than they really are will be screaming about how cops are justified in thinking unarmed children are threats, but civilians aren’t justified in taking an actual fucking gun in their actual fucking faces are, just because the paranoiac psychopath on the other end is wearing a badge.

458

So, when someone breaks in your door in the middle of the night, how well do you need to see them in order to consider them an imminent threat?

You are skeptical that someone would consider someone breaking down their door in the middle of the night as a threat? You don’t need to see that they have a weapon, the broke down your fucking door, that’s pretty threatening.

So, I ask you, what will you do? Will you politely wait until the intruder presents ID, at which time, if they wish you ill, you and your family is dead, or will you defend your family from intruders?

This isn’t even just self defense, this is defending others. If you allow people to break down your door in the middle of the night unchallenged, they won’t just be killing you, they will be killing your spouse and your children.

You have found yourself in a logical contradiction here, either you have the right to self defense, or you don’t. You feel that self defense can be used on the flimsiest of excuses, the slightest fear no matter how unreasonable, and no matter how provable should allow you to kill with impunity. And yet, if someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night, you may not shoot them, because they might be cops.

459

It doesn’t matter.

Mississippi police raid wrong home, kill man inside

… Mississippi police officers went to the wrong house to serve a warrant on Monday, which resulted in the shooting death of a man who did not have any active warrants out for his arrest.

A warrant out of Tate County shows Samuel Pearman was wanted for domestic assault. But, when Southaven officers arrived on Surrey Lane to arrest Pearman, they did not show up to the correct house.

Instead, officers missed their target by 36 feet. Those 36 feet made all the difference to Ismael Lopez and his wife.

“Someone didn’t take the time to analyze the address,” attorney Murray Wells, who represents the family, said. “This is incredibly tragic and embarrassing to this police department that they can’t read house numbers.”

… That’s when she heard gunshots and by the time she reached her husband, he was already dead.

“Bullet holes suggest they shot through the door,” Wells said.

On Feb. 11, 2012, sheriff’s Deputy Aaron Thompson and corrections Officer Kristopher Rongen went to an Auburn-area home where Theoharis was renting a room from a friend, Cole Harrison. Thompson and Rongen were there along with several other officers to serve an arrest warrant on Harrison’s son, who had failed to check in with this DOC community corrections officer.

Theoharis was oblivious to what was happening. He was napping in a darkened back bedroom, after having not slept well the previous couple of nights.
The officers had already taken Harrison’s son into custody and were interviewing other people in the house when Thompson and Rongen entered Theoharis’ room.

“I woke up and there were two guys standing at the door,” Theoharis recalled. “They asked me for ID and I went to grab for it and that’s when I was shot.”

He was struck “everywhere,” he says. In the jaw, both upper arms, both lower arms, his wrist, his hand, his shoulder, his abdomen, both legs. He was shot 16 times without ever getting out of bed.

460

Wrong. You may shoot them, unless they’re cops.