I pit the laws that alienate fathers from their children through no fault of their own

The BBQ Pit
1

This is a hypothetical rant with regards my own situation at the moment, but I am appalled at the implications, should my child’s mother decide that I shouldn’t see him anymore.

i’m in the UK, and have an 18 month old son. I split from the child’s mother when he was just 4 months old. The reasons for that would be for an entirely different thread. This is just background info to put my question in context, but it was an entirely mutual split, which we both still hold to, and came about with no outside influences. I realise there will be replies abusing us for having a child and then splitting up so early, and I agree with them. It was an unfortunate situation. We were not married, but I am the named father on the birth certificate, which I believe now gives me the same rights as if we were married.

I see the child four days out of the seven, including an overnight visit and all day one day per weekend. This has all been arranged amicably and not through the courts, as has the amount of money we both contribute into a joint account for all funds relating to his needs. We both think the other is an excellent parent, and I cannot wait for every time I get to spend time with him.

So far so regrettable but ok (and even good), all things considering.

What i’m worried about is longer term. If/when the mother gets a new partner, if she wants to move abroad, if she wants whatever it is she wants, if we fall out over a big argument, or whatever? what if she wants me to see less of him and for him to see less of me?

As far as I can see, the courts are all automatically in her favour, and I have nothing. As a result, she holds all the cards, and every day, every discussion, every contact we have, we both know this. it’s not an even footing at all. If she tried to stop us seeing each other, do I have anything to back me up?

It’s such an upsetting thought that it terrifies me, despite it not currently being like that, or threatening to be like that. But it feels like a sword of damocles, and honestly the thought of something like that happening is never far from my thoughts. I fucking hate the way that the mother is automatically granted all rights, and the father none.

Apparently, even if the mother is ordered to allow the father more visitation or whatever, there is no followup, even if the mother does not do that. The whole system sucks, and there needs to be more parity in the way these things are decided.

The father is means-tested to provide maintenance, regardless of the income in the other household (this isn’t a problem in my particular case, and i’m sure every father wants to provide for their child, but i’m sure there’s plenty of occasions where the father is royally stiffed on this).

i know the mother/child bond is massively important, but so is the father/child bond. In the recenet days of riots in the UK, there has been much media talk of a feral underclass. There are many children growing up with no male parental guidance, and whilst some of that will no doubt be a result of absent and rubbish fathers, but I’m sure some fathers will be absent through no wish of their own. Can you imagine being separated from your child due to the actions of the mother? And of how traumatic that would be for both father and child?

2

I am sorry for your difficult situation. I don’t have any idea how UK laws work with regards to parental rights, but I have a hard time believing that unless you royally screw up in your life you are in danger of losing parental rights to your son. It seems that this is just a percieved problem on your part, and that in reality, you probably don’t have that much to be worried about. However, as I said, I don’t know how custody and gaurdianship laws in the UK work so I am just talking out of my ass, more or less. I guess I’m just trying to say, are you REALLY really sure that the law is written that you could just be screwed over at any given moment, or is it possible that you maybe are just worried about a problem that doesn’t really exist.

3

thanks for your kind words.

This page was the result of a quick internet search that appears to back up what i’ve heard so far

4

Glad to hear that despite the break up with the mother of your child, you’re currently able to have a good relationship and spend time with your son.

I’m wondering what the basis of your fears is, i.e. have you been reading up on the law, or is it more ad hoc stories you’ve heard in the press, etc?

5

this is another (from the same site)

6

n answer to both posters so far, i’m no expert at all - i’m going on hearsay and commonly held belief, and would LOVE to be proved wrong! i’m aware of fathers 4 justice over the years, and the more accepted FNF (families need fathers) which are doing some great work, but despite my lack of knowledge, i’m aware the system is MASSIVELY skewed in favour of the mother, and that even if the court rules that the father has certain rights, that in practice these are unenforcable

this is an interesting example of the courts protecting the fathers! although i suspect it’s very rare:

7

I’ve heard similar stories- legally yes, the father has the right to see his children, however, it really is not enforced. A family friend’s son broke up with his wife and was not allowed to see his 2 kids (about 6 and 8 I believe) for a year. His birthday and christmas presents to them were returned unopened. They were not allowed to speak to him on the phone for more than a minute or so, and she very rarely allowed that.

He did everything through the law that he could, and had several court orders granting him access, but he had to arrange beorehand to pick them up, and they just were never there when he came to see them.
The situation only finally collapsed when the family friend (their grandpa) died suddenly and the mother’s parents forced her to take the kids to the funeral.

Yeah, it can happen.

8

Why don’t you pay a lawyer to sit down and talk to you about the situation? It seems like you are mostly scared because you don’t know. Stories on the internet are not a great place to get information, because you don’t know what else is going on.

Make it clear to the lawyer that right now you don’t want to change anything, but you need to know what the worst case scenarios are and if there is anything you could be doing now to make sure you avoid them (there may be specific actions the court looks for and you want to always be able to demonstrate, or red flags to avoid.)

9

We have the opposite problem here. I actually read of a case (in Richmond Virginia) where a Father had been criminally convicted of sexually abusing his children, and was sent to prison for it. The Mother was forced by the courts to bring the children to the prison every two weeks for visitation with their Father.

And if you don’t have enough proof to criminally convict, there is no recourse, he WILL get unsupervised visitation, no matter what the Mother has seen him do. (Because the Mother is automatically assumed to be bitter and trying to ruin him - the police/CPS will not even investigate.)

Its a complete nightmare and Protective parents in the US are forced to make horrific decisions every day: Comply with the Court Order, drop off your child for two days visitation with their abuser knowing they will probably be raped - or - defy the court order, and automatically lose custody in favor of the abuser, so that he/she has the opportunity to abuse them daily.

Neither system is great, but yours is much, much better.

10

You have two cites from an extremely biased website, and one from a less biased website that contradicts what you say!

I think you are worrying over something that is unlikely to happen. You should speak to a lawyer and find out if your fears are justified, and if there are things you can do to protect yourself. Personally, I have known mothers and fathers who’ve been screwed by this system; from what I’ve seen the more ruthless person usually prevails, at least for a time. But, the vast majority of people I’ve known dealing with this are treated mostly fairly and don’t have any serious issues. Since you have been going along like that, I’d imagine odds are it will continue.

11

This is not true. There are no laws anywhere that require fathers to provide child support.

What there are is laws requiring non-custodial parents to provide child support. It’s very, very different.

I’ll give you the fact that custody laws tend to biased towards the mother, but it’s not like joint custody never happens. It’s a pretty normal situation. Parenting is more than weekends at the park and Christmas dinner. Parenting is dragging the kid to the emergency room at four in the morning, giving up chunks of your career to focus on the kid, having to restrict your love life to people who are okay with someone who already has kids, not being able to live in a studio in the city, and all that jazz. It always makes me raise my eyebrows when I see people fighting like hell for visitation (or more often, complaining like hell), but not even trying for custody. If you want the rights and you want the relationship, you ought to show at least some interest in doing the work.

There is a lesson here- be choosy about who you have babies with. If you make babies with someone who isn’t really on the same wavelength as you, you may end up in some ridiculous custody battle and you may well end up with kids you don’t see much. Contrary to popular belief, it’s not impossible to tell the difference between “Wow, I’m in a deeply committed and fully trusting long term relationship with a level-headed, responsible, caring person who I absolutely trust will have our children’s best interests in mind no matter what happens” and “Wow, let’s put tab A in slot B and see what happens!”

12

In Peru, the laws always go for the mother. In any dispute the mother gets the kids and you have to prove that the mum is selling drugs stored in the kids anus while she forces them to have sex with strangers and later bathing them in acid, to get custody.

13

When you choose to have a child without the benefit of marriage, then make custody/ maintenance arrangements without court involvement, (Which, I personally think is admirable and speaks highly of your character!) that’s the risk you run.

You seem to want the protection of a contract you never felt the need to enter into.

And I say this as a woman in a long term, no marriage relationship, involving shared income and assets. However I don’t have the illusion that I deserve the courts to recognize/enforce any arrangement that I haven’t felt the need to put into a contract. I am operating on my trust of this person, I assume you are doing the same. It doesn’t come without some risks, as an adult, I’m sure you were aware.

14

in the uk, since sometime last decade, getting your name as the father on the birth certificate gives you the same rights as if i had married the child’s mother. i appreciate your comments though :slight_smile:

15

my point was written badly. i was talking about non-custodial parents.

i want joint custody, absolutely. i’m not prepared to go through the courts and jeopardise the situation we currently have, and she doesn’t want me to have him stay with me during the week as it would upset the routine we currently have. i can understand it on a practical basis at the moment, in that she works as a teacher and is free earlier than i am. she has negotiated time off on certain afternoons and her dad picks her up the other days. he’s in nursery every morning, and then is picked up by either her or her dad. i finish work at 5:30. on three of the five weekdays, i then go to hers for 5:45 and either stay with him while she goes out, or take him to mine on fridays, to stay over and have him all day saturday. there’s no real way i can get there any earlier (i’m already earning 10k less than i was 5 years ago because it’s the only job i can get in a location that allows me to be with him during the week, but they wouldn’t give me part time hours on a regular basis!) this is the only way it can work, but in future if i can have him living with me 50% of the time, i would take it. i’d take it more than that of course, but i want what’s best for the kid, and obviously that’s seeing as much of both of us as possible.

16

In the UK, if you are not married but registered as the father of a child born after December 2003, that gives you the same rights and responsibilities, regarding that child, to a married father. Being registered as the father is now the relevant contract here, not marrying.

I’m no legal expert, but the problem here is that courts do not enforce the visitation/joint custody agreements for anyone, whether they were married or not. My mother tends to rant a lot about it, as she was brought up by her Dad solo.

17

there are many more that i’ve read from different websites, but when going to look for some, i merely picked the first two i found. i’ve done more reading than that. lf course they’re biased websites because it’s a forum for people who are being screwed by the courts to post their experiences. that’s why i found it. ergo, it’s going to be a biased website. the fact that there are a lot of them about seems to indicate there may be good reason.

i think there’s every chance it will continue like this, and i pray to god it will, but there’s also a chance that given some lightning bolt of change - a new partner (for either of us), a new job (for her, as no job will affect how much i will make myself available to be with my son), an argument, etc, that it will not continue like this. and that’s a hell of a thing to have hanging in your mind, no matter the odds. however small the odds, they’re higher than i’d like.

18

i also want to say that as it stands i am not having a rant at my ex. at all. she’s gone out of her way to allow me time with him. when my car broke down, she brought him somewhere where i could still see him. she recently came to a family event of mine as she thinks that, for the sake of the kid, we should get on with each others families, etc. she’s been absolutely fine. it’s more a worry that if something should change in the future, and that were not the case, the way the law works out in this country, i would stand a good chance of getting written out of my kid’s life. and that is just horrendous. what i’ve read are some absolute horror stories, and i can’t believe the modern world still acts like that. as i said in my title and in my first sentence, it’s a rant at the way it works, not at my current situation.

19

But the fact remains that you and the mother of your child have purposely opted for an arrangement without the law getting involved. If you want the protection of the law, it would behoove you to get the law involved with your arrangement.

Listing your name on the birth certificate is great, but that obviously isn’t enough to ensure you have access to your kid. Plenty of “fathers” do the same thing and turn out to be absentees. So should a women who has a kid by one of these deadbeats be forever obligated to his whims and wishes, just because his name is on the baby’s birth certificate?

In theory, your ex- is in a precarious position too. You could pick up and leave with the kid too, and her case in court will be harder to fight than it would have been had you had a court-ordered agreement in place. Yeah, odds are in her favor that she’d win this case, but you can’t attribute that totally to her gender. Compare the amount of time you spend with the kid versus the amount she does. Not equal is it.

20

It was badly written. Words have meaning. You undermine whatever real arguments you have when you make bogus arguments like “fathers are forced to pay maintenance.” Make real arguments or don’t make any at all.

Anyway, welcome to being a parent. I would love to have a kid, but I live in a shitty studio apartment, make no money, and have no way to take care of one. Taking care of a kid would make my life infinitely harder than it already is. Being a parent opens you up to insecurity and heartache that I’m not ready to deal with. It opens you up to financial problems like you wouldn’t believe. I can’t care for a kid like that. So, I make sure that stuff gets wrapped up.

It’s not that I don’t feel bad for you- it’s a tough position to be in. But it’s not all that unexpected or unpreventable of a predicament. Life is tough and big choices have big consequences.