This from the guy that thinks ABS performs threshold braking.
ha. You think I’m lying? That’s quite funny. Just can’t admit your wrong, can you?
Concept is simple enough Ivn. When on snow, you can stop faster by NOT using ABS and braking to the point right before it comes on.
And for that matter, it would not matter if I grasp the physics (I most certainly do). Demonstratable facts, are facts.
There seems to be a little bit of thread-drift here, it seems to be focusing more on ABS than TC, yes, I know ABS is part of the TC system, but the real issue here is how TC seems to result in a loss of power just when it’s needed most in snowy/slippery conditions
If you haven’t driven in heavy snow, it dramatically changes how a vehicle behaves, heck, different types of snow affect handling in different ways, a nice, fluffy dry snow packs down well and actually allows reasonable traction, wet snow compresses and gets slippery, slushy snow is heavy and can cause light vehicles to “rut-steer”, the snow that TC caused me to get almost-stuck in was the heavy, wet stuff
the simple fact of the matter is that turning off TC allowed me to get un-stuck, had I had TC off in the first place, I would have probably not gotten stuck
What you call TC (Traction Control) is VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) on my SUV. Any slip will limit the RPM of the vehicle. I understand the reasoning, but when you need to punch it and don’t care about a little wheel slip or drift, it can really, really mess up your plans. Just got to remember to turn it off when you know you can handle the car better than it can. I turn it off quite often in the winter. At the junction from the local road to the highway, and getting home and up my driveway. It is an impressive system in some cases. But has got me stuck a few times. I suppose it’s my fault for forgetting to turn it off.
When you drive on ice and snow a lot, it can be a bit annoying. Every little slip, even intentional ones send the wheels into a sing song of bips and buzzes.
ABS is a different side of the same coin. It’s the indicator that you have gone over the threshold of good braking in most all conditions, including pavement and packed snow. The good news is, it does not lock ‘em up and still provides good stopping power. ABS is also the ‘oh shit’ indicator telling you that you will not be able to lock ‘em up and stop (certain gravel and snow conditions). You’re pretty much fucked then and are at the mercy of the ABS.
At the risk of turning this flame war into a productive discussion that’s totally pit-inappropriate, I’d be interested in having this demonstrated or cited. Your personal impression of how fast you can stop isn’t necessarily wrong, but it’s not particularly good evidence. Doesn’t matter if it “feels” like you’re sliding more when using the ABS; that’s subject to your perceptions and biases. Given that your stated technique is to brake just to the point of slippage and then back off a little, and that’s exactly what the computer does many times per second, I don’t see how you’re going to be better at staying right at the threshold than the computer is. Not to mention, the computer has a pretty notable advantage of being able to control all four wheels independently. If you do it yourself, you can only brake as hard as the friction from your slipperiest wheel will allow, thus wasting whatever additional traction the other three might have.
I’m not gonna call you a liar or dumb-ass, but let’s just say you’ve yet to convince me that you’re right, despite your extensive seat-of-the-pants experience. Actual measurements or at least a convincing explanation would go a lot further.
Look at the video in post #41. That’s a real life professional driver. Are you going to
a) trust him
b) trust random anonymous internet dweebs
I know where my my money is (and I count myself as a dweeb) 
Was that a professional driver? He looked and sounded more like a Discovery reporter ( or a Jag salesman ). Which leads to - the whole thing looked like a (staged) Jaguar commercial. What was up with that truck just continuing to plow thru cones? Who drives up a hill covered in sheet ice? How well would the TC work on a snow covered hill? And maybe the most important question - are these things that are currently available on regular cars or just high priced luxury ones?
For those of us that are hard of thinking, Tiff Needell - Wikipedia
NB: a Jaguar X-type is a Ford Mondeo with some cosmetic changes. If you think that’s a luxury car, I’m not going to argue with you 
Oh gosh I am so sorry that I didn’t recognize a British racing driver and television personality. Which I suppose means that he isn’t really experienced in driving in snow and ice, is he?
Is this your asshole way of saying that the TC, ABS and ESP on that Jag are also available in Fords? I mean, I asked a bunch of logical questions and all you can do is point out that some race car driver was in the video and Ford is making Jaguars now. Do you not have actual answers to any of the questions?
Wow, lots of, umm, interesting opinions in this thread.
Lots of misinformation also.
Some of you might want to keep the following items in mind.
Yes it is. They are standard features on the British Mondeo and its American cousin the Fusion. Heck, it’s even standard on the Focus.
Hokay.
Had to drive into work today to boot some servers. On the way, I tested stopping distances.
All of this is done on a snow packed road at 11 degrees Fahrenheit. A slight downhill. Distances are what I paced off. 2006 Pathfinder with BFG All terrains. I get the same response with my Wifes Grand Jeep with Nokian’s.
I backed up the vehicle and did it multiple times for each test on the same surface. Except I did move over so I did not go over the same skid.
For the surface/snow tested
At 20mph –
ABS stops at the average of 48 feet.
Threshold braking stops at an average of 36 feet.
At 25 mph –
ABS stops at the average of 72 feet.
Threshold braking stops at an average of 51 feet.
This is the difference between rear ending someone or not, or ending up in the ditch. I may be able to test higher speeds on my way home.
This thread speaks quite clearly to the differences about experience. Been there done that experience compared to those that read it somewhere in a magazine or saw it on TV. Or some Formula One Driver that is clearly out of his element. That was actually quite funny.
I respect Ricks opinion a great deal. But I doubt he has the snow and ice driving experience that I have. I will push this forward to the point that I doubt anyone on this board has the snow and ice driving experience that either myself or my wife has. That’s Just the way it is.
Yep, it’s easier to stop a car on ice or snow by coming to the threshold and not letting ABS take over.
When does ABS take over?
Anyone?
ABS takes over when you have exceeded the limit for threshold braking.
Today, again on packed snow at 30mph I was able to out brake ABS by 30 feet. On Ice and snow, controlled braking by a competent driver will beat ABS every time. Easy Peasy, as my cousin would say.
It stuns me that anyone doubts this.
Thanks for the compliment, but see my comment #2 above. I suspect you have a craptacular ABS system on your car.
I would love to repeat this test with a top flight system.
:eek:
Hey, Rick. Me too.
I’m not in a position to test Volvo, BMW or Mercedes ABS. And even if I had friends that owned them, I doubt they would like it if I took it over the pass to test it and see if I can put it in the ditch or not.
Perhaps My Nissan and My Wife’s Jeep have craptacular (your word) ABS systems. So do then, the Fords, and Chevys that I drive.
Rick How many 10s of thousands of miles have you driven on Ice and snow? I’d say 60,000 miles driving on packed snow and ice myself. That’s probably a conservative figure. Not just a snowy day. Packed snow and ice. Rubber to snow. And 6 months out of the year I need 4x4 to get home. I’m not counting that.
I suspect something else. The ABS systems that we have does what it is supposed to do. Mostly. But it does it pretty poorly on snowpack. Oh it does a good job, just not nearly as good as a person that regularly drives those conditions.
I also suspect something else. Those of us that drive snow every day might actually know what we are talking about. I would not give up my ABS or VDC for anything. But sometimes, when you really really wish you were in control instead of the car, these systems can suck.
I’ve put my numbers forward and am sure that on snow pack I can out stop my vehicles ABS. Easily it turns out.
Hrrumph. Before I turn into a complete asshole, let me say this. I understand that the general community cannot test traction control at will. I can. And have been called a lier. And you Rick suspect there is someting wrong with my vehicle. I have to ask, how often do you check ABS or VDC on snow?
I get to do it every day whether I want to or not.
This is really not a debate to me. It’s just what I do every day. Don’t believe me. :shrug: fine. Just trying to share the experiences that I have had.
I now have to go plow the drive. My Wife just got in, but its done. If I don’t push it out we will not get in tomorrow.
My 2003 Mustang GT had the kind of traction control that tries to kill you when you need to accelerate from danger. My 2007 Mustang GT has a much improved system. It lets you spin the tires until the car gets sideways and then it cuts input until it straightens up, which is usually a fast snap back to center, and then lets you keep going.
No I don’t have the thousands of miles that you have, but I did spend 3 months in the dead of winter in Ontario Canada driving a Volvo with summer tires. I have also spent time in winter in places like Chicago at -25F, Vancouver BC, Boston, NY and other places that made me quote Jimmy Buffet I want to go where it’s warm
So I have some small experience with low traction conditions.
FWIW a few years ago we did a track day with a where we compared a Honda, Lexus, Nissan, a BMW 3 series, a Mercedes C class and a couple of Volvos. The brakes and ABS systems on the Asian cars were noticeably inferior to the European cars. Based on my experience with Asian cars I’m guessing that the ABS system on your Pathfinder is not zactly state of the art. ::: Shrug:::
Interesting; thanks for actually going out and doing some measurements. I’m still not sure I understand why this works the way it does, and would be interested in finding out, but I guess I learned something new today.
My guess would be this: whether you’re on dry pavement, wet pavement, snow, or ice, using ABS necessarily involves going back and forth repeatedly across that threshold of grip. Threshold braking as you describe it involves going over that threshold once and then backing off so you don’t hit it again. But backing off enough that you are sure not to hit it means you are probably backed off further than you need to be. On pavement, the tradeoff is that you can hit that threshold repeatedly and allow a tiny amount slippage each time, but the slippage isn’t so severe that you lose the advantage of braking as close to that threshold as you possibly can. But on ice, going over the threshold is bad enough that it’s actually a better strategy to back off further, throw away a little braking power, and avoid crossing that threshold more times. Seems plausible.
Rick - Interesting about the Asian cars. I do get the same results with My Wife’s Jeep, though I guess that system may not be top flight. Don’t know.
A co-worker attended this class a few years ago - http://winterdrive.com/ I remember that he commented that he was able to out stop the ABS. It was part of the curriculum. First time I ever heard it referenced as threshold braking. Looks like they use Toyotas today.
ntucker The way I test this is to brake until ABS kicks in and back off a little. I keep testing that threshold and I suspect that for about 10% of the time ABS is doing the braking, the rest is me trying to keep it at the threshold. It’s really pretty easy to do. It’s actually kinda natural because I can feel greater stopping power at that threshold.
Not sure just how reliable this site is…
http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/braking.htm It talks about ABS vs. Threshold braking.
Though I’m talking about hard pack snow. And I assume they are talking about locking of the brakes.
Anyone else out there have a nice lonely snowpacked road they could test this on?
We’ll try this again but with some cites:
TL;DR
Threshold braking can be better but in the vast majority of cases ABS is better. Since it is impossible to tell what emergency you may face ABS overall gives you the greatest safety margin compared to other methods of braking.
Besides, with ABS you can still threshold brake.
Seeing a theme here?
Yes, threshold braking can be superior to ABS in some situations. Note the “can” and “some”. Further, threshold braking is a skill and even those well versed in it can and do mess it up.
Given that I think all the posters here are human I submit that makes them fallible. If they want to make a case for God-like infallibility they are welcome to try.
It is one thing to play around with threshold braking in a parking lot. It is another when in an emergency situation which will play out in 3-5 seconds. To presume our super-threshold-brakers here can calmly assess the situation and control themselves enough to apply just the right amount of braking beggars belief. Even if they can in some instances I doubt they could guarantee it in all instances. Are they never a little tired when driving or are never distracted or never have other things pressing on their minds?
Hmmm…. Well it was probably wrong to include ABS as part of this pit thread. TC or VDC is another subject.
Never claimed I had ‘God like infallibility’. I do have a boat load of experience though. Would you accept that?
I agree that ABS is a good thing. And the few times that I have used it in a panic stop it has helped. Mostly though, it helps show where the threshold is to the driver. At least on ice and snow. But, it also does a pretty good job in its own right.
I guess because I drive so much in adverse weather, I am used to backing off the ABS as soon as it kicks in. It’s natural. I remember clearly the first few times that I had ABS kick in on two different vehicles. Snow, and packed snow. I could feel that the brakes where not working. I could feel that I was NOT slowing down like I expected. It takes a little time to play the ABS against threshold braking.
In steep snowy conditions, ABS can really suck. It will chatter and buzz you to a stop eventually. But you lose traction when ABS locks up the wheels to test conditions 20 times a second. So there is slide, and then additional slide to get the tire and wheel turning again and get control. And repeat.
Perhaps the cars I have driven all have shitty ABS. But if what I am hearing and understand, the ABS system must lock up the tires to test traction. A good driver that knows the road, his tires and conditions does not necessarily need to do that but a few times. Not 20 times a second. That’s a lot of sliding there.
Best bet, from my experience it to let off of it and drive. Just driving my road I can experience this every day.
Wack-A-Mole. I have no need to practice in parking lots. I get ‘practice’ every day on the way to pretty much anywhere. ABS is pretty good. And I’m glad I have it. I threshold brake a lot, it’s easy to out brake ABS on snow. Real easy.
I do it every day.
How much snow driving do you do Wack-A-Mole?